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Maximizing Values Through Garden Suites with Chris Shebib

Maximizing Values Through Garden Suites with Chris Shebib
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George El Masri [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, I'm your host, George El Masri, and you're listening to another episode where I got to interview Chris Shabib. For those that don't know, Chris is a long time investor. He's been in the game since 1992. He started off as a contractor, did some work in it as well, actually went to Silicon Valley to get some stuff done out there, but ended up returning over here. And he has a ton of experience, especially being a contractor, seeing a lot of things on the back end. What we talked about on this episode was a lot of stuff around garden suites. For those that don't know, it's kind of a newer concept, obviously, with the way things are right now, the municipalities are looking for more density. So allowing people, more people to live in smaller spaces

Chris Shebib [00:00:48] kind of and sort of way. I mean, I'm kind of summarizing it here, but

George El Masri [00:00:51] basically lets you allow allows you to take your home and add an additional unit in your backyard. Pretty much we talked about that process, the costs associated with that and the kind of rents that you can expect, the return on investment and the cash flow that's added to your your project when you do that. So tons of benefits to adding a garden suite. I think you guys are going to really enjoy this. It's possible in in a lot of different municipalities. Chris specifically talked about Barry. I know it's possible in places like Weland and I believe in Brantford, in some other places. So if you're interested in finding out how to add cash flow to your existing projects or even how to look or what to look for in your future projects to add a garden suite, this is a great episode, as always. We just want to let you know that we appreciate you. And if you enjoy the content, make sure to share it. Make sure to even on Instagram, if you want to post the Spotify link, let people know about this. Leave us a review that's always appreciated. And if you want to connect, if you want to talk to me about projects that I'm working on, which is typically an, well, endorsing Katherines and in Hamilton as well, please do go to well-off Dossie and you can contact me there. Set up a call I'm

Chris Shebib [00:02:01] happy to discuss with you. Enjoy the episode. Welcome to the Gulf Coast, where the goal is to motivate, inspire and share success principles. I'm here with Chris Shebib today. Chris has been investing in Canada and the US since nineteen ninety two. He's a former contractor and he's currently an investor. And he has completed millions in forced depreciation renovations and has a strong track record of producing wealth through multiple unit investing or multiple investing strategies in different markets. Chris, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us.

Chris Shebib [00:02:35] Thanks for having me, George. I'm glad to be here.

Chris Shebib [00:02:37] Yeah. So I'd like to start off, as you know, by asking about your childhood. If you want to tell me a little bit about where you grew up. One or two things you remember.

Chris Shebib [00:02:46] Yeah, for sure. I grew up actually in Peterboro and yeah, I was lucky enough growing up to have some influences close to and in and around investing. And I was pretty young at the time. So as a couple of my brother's friends were into investing sorry, not their friends, their his friend's parents. And so I grew up around that had that as an influence early on. And then I had a friend of mine as well that got into investing pretty young. And so those were some of those early investing experiences. And I grew up in a family where it wasn't entrepreneurial, it was more leadership in manufacturing. And so I grew up hearing stories about leadership and, you know, large company dynamics. And all of that was really good. But I had a really strong entrepreneurial drive in me. So it was kind of unique path just coming from that place, being exposed to investing and then that crossroads right to I do I follow in those footsteps and do something similar to that, or do I do something completely different? Yeah. So I ended up doing three different careers so far and doing a bunch of investing while that was going on.

Chris Shebib [00:04:08] Yeah. So obviously you were a contractor at one point. Is that how you got into real estate investing or did you start off on the investment side and then got into becoming a contractor?

Chris Shebib [00:04:19] Yes, I started right at high school actually, for my own business, went into contracting, became a licensed carpenter, and still am, although I don't I don't do that today. And I was in residential first and then moved into commercial started run some large scale commercial jobs, fairly young, which was really a great opportunity, but but also fairly stressful. And I realized that wasn't what I wanted to do for the long term. So I went back to school and took computer science and psychology ajoint major. At the time, I didn't realize that there was going to be such a strong parallel between contracting and software engineering. So I went into software engineering, coming out of school, moved to Silicon Valley, worked for startups and some mid-sized companies, and started running the tech teams and moved back here to Ontario, started to run more tech teams and some larger companies. And about six different countries oversaw project management and custom solutions and I.T. and custom and product development. All of that was really good and amazing in the end, providing a bunch of experience for the investing side of things. And then I started to move into my third career, which is I was doing real estate investing through a contracting. Back to your question and technology. I was doing it, but it was always like a side thing. And everybody has this one or two things. If they look back and did something different, I wish the tumblers dropped a little sooner for me and I. I moved into my third career sooner, but in the end it was investing. And how fruitful it was and how enjoyable it was that made that the target for my third career, you know, contracting first to the technology second and then into full time investing. There was some really kind of linchpin turning points there for me that that made me think about it as a full time career as opposed to I'm a contractor, I have the skill. And so why don't I buy the worst house I can find and get it and fix it up? Yeah, and that was that was almost like a you know, the osmosis learning from the the the influences I had as a teenager and some of my contractor friends doing the same thing. And I was like, OK, why don't I do that? And then I continued to do it over the years. But but it wasn't until much later where I, I started to think about it more like a system and a business and and applying a bunch of the skills I learned in and my tech career and a contracting career to kind of facilitate that transition into a full fledged business.

Chris Shebib [00:06:57] Got it. Yeah. Yeah. It's been a long journey. You tried different things and you found your sweet spot. What are you focusing on today in twenty twenty one.

Chris Shebib [00:07:09] Yeah. I mean it's been an interesting year for sure, especially in real estate. And so today I invest in the east, north and west of Toronto and I focus almost exclusively on the right. So forced depreciation. And I'm using that contractor background and the renovations that I did as purely as a contractor and also as an investor. And I kind of bucket them into three categories right there, small, medium, large rentals. And I focus on those medium rentals that's full of guts. It's it's changing structural walls. It's doing, you know, a bunch of stuff like that that is very predictable, very repeatable, very scalable, but not like we're not picking up homes and moving them. I'm not underpinning foundations and things. I'm not doing some of those things on field stone foundations and heritage homes. That's not personally my sweet spot, just because it's a little more snowflake, a little less predictable, a little more high risk. High reward. Yeah, I kind of joke the burden of forced depreciation that I do is like a flight rate. If it's if it's boring, it's good. And I'll get my thrills from bungee jumping or something when we're doing investing. The exciting part should be the wealth building, not necessarily the rentals we're doing for sure.

Chris Shebib [00:08:26] Yeah. So, so what I'm gathering from you is you try to avoid those properties where they need like major, major structural work or anything of that sort. You maybe more stick to the cosmetic stuff. Is that more or less what you're saying?

Chris Shebib [00:08:41] Well, if you kind of look at the three buckets, I would say just for definition sake, the small, medium, large or small is carpet paint, purely cosmetic stuff. And then big ones are we're picking up the house and moving it to a different law. It's heritage homes and all those bigger kind of it's it's an older century home. It's a tube. It's cast iron. It's all kinds of things of that nature that are it's the standard story where you don't know what you get into until you crack the walls open and God knows what you'll find. Right? Yeah. You just know the scope is going to get bigger. That's all you really know. And then the medium sized ones were gutting kitchens, gutting bathrooms, tearing it up to Joyce, tearing it down to studs, full brand new basements. All of those things I would categorize as that medium sized reino. So that's that's that's really how I would define that medium.

Chris Shebib [00:09:33] And that's your that's a sweet spot. The medium medium market

Chris Shebib [00:09:38] in both apartments and in residential. Same kind of rentals in both.

Chris Shebib [00:09:42] Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I like the way you think about that. It's safe. It's repeatable. It's predictable because you've done it so many times. You know, it's not like a high risk, high reward. It's more of a stable type of strategy.

Chris Shebib [00:09:56] So, yeah, exactly. And when you look at you kind of stress test your investment before you going into it, the boundaries aren't that far apart from the most probable worst case to the most probable probable best case. They're not really that far apart versus in the bigger windows, they're further apart. So risk management, right to your point, it's it's more it's more repeatable, for sure. Yeah.

Chris Shebib [00:10:19] Are you doing the same type of renovation every time? Same type of property, same thing. Or does it vary like, for example, some people do legal second suites every single time, same type of property, same area, same formula. Is that kind of what you're doing or are you doing slightly different projects here and there?

Chris Shebib [00:10:38] Mainly it's it's focus and and repeating. So I do a lot of second suites. I consult with clients on how to how to do it and then consult with them throughout the process. And I do the same in my my investments where there's been a recent change, obviously, in garden suites. Yeah. Focusing on those I mean, this is really just secondary suites from six, seven years ago, it's it's all the exact same concepts, even the the R y and the cash flow. We're seeing this big influx of our Alliant cash flow as a result of some kind of garden suites being introduced. And that will get consumed. Right, as investors and investors will pay for that cash. A little drive prices up. Right. So that's a new how I force appreciation. Apartment buildings is slightly different than how I force and in residential. But to your point around, are these kind of rinse and repeat cookie cutter? Very much so. On the secondary suites I use, you know, every couple of years I'll update the finishes. Other than that, I'm saying to my contractors, just do what we did in the last one, right? Yes. Vinyl flooring, it's quartz countertops and stainless appliances. It's nice, clean, professional, super nice looking, durable, not crazy expensive. It's all that balance, right? Yeah.

Chris Shebib [00:11:56] Aside from second suites, are there any other type of projects you work on at this time?

Chris Shebib [00:12:02] Yeah, I'm looking at I'm looking at some top ups. To me, the market in some of the markets that I work in, top ups are making a bunch of sense right now.

Chris Shebib [00:12:15] What is the top up anyway?

Chris Shebib [00:12:17] Yeah, sorry. It's so top up. Just meeting, taking a bungalow, adding a second story. Got it. Yeah. So that is an interesting model. And I mean, people have been doing that in really concentrated areas in Toronto for a while and doing really well at it. But I think the numbers are translating out into the into the markets like Hamilton, Barry and Oshawa. They're starting to make sense in those markets as well. And so I'm looking at that as something I'll probably focus on over the next few years as well as Phillips.

Chris Shebib [00:12:54] I'm sorry. Yeah, that's an interesting concept. And you also touched on garden suites. So I don't I don't know if we can go into that. Do you want to tell us a little bit about some of your recent projects, some of the costs involved? Because I know there's some questions around that. Like, obviously, the structure itself has a cost, but then there are other charges, other fees that are associated with having a garden suite. So maybe you can break it a little bit of that down for us.

Chris Shebib [00:13:21] Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, first, just for those who are familiar with the garden suite, some of your listeners, the garden suite is a flavor. And unfortunately, not all municipalities are using the same jargon. So just for our definitions and conversation here, secondary dwellings is an umbrella term for courthouses, houses and laneway houses and garden suites. Gardens Suite is just then type of secondary dwelling right versus your secondary unit, which is the retrofit inside the main house. So that garden suite is the detached unit that sits on the same plot of land away from the main house again versus the secondary suite, as we well know, is that retrofit of the apartment within the main house. So that's kind of the differentiation for those who are familiar with the garden suite concept so that the simplest, most straightforward garden suite is a one bedroom on slab and so on. Slab just means that it's going to be a poured slab concrete and we're going to build a house on top of that. It's like a garage sized house. Yeah, but it's self-contained. It's got its own heating and cooling. It's an electrical and plumbing. Everything is self-contained within this garage sized house in the backyard. Yeah, the general rule of thumb is about 10 percent of the lot size is what you can allocate for that garden suite. You want at least one hundred feet in depth in order to allow for that, because you're going to have four foot set backs away from your lot lines there, certain distances away from the main house. You have to be. And you I mean, practically for for living. You also want enough space in and around the garden suite for a tenant to live, right? Yeah. So for costs for that one bedroom on slab, I think around 180 is the cost for that. The rent one eighty two hundred. The rent is going to be around eighteen hundred per month. And the interesting thing is

Chris Shebib [00:15:27] this isn't Barry right. Sorry to interrupt. You're talking about and Barry here, the rent here about eighteen hundred per month and this is typically like a four or five hundred square foot place.

Chris Shebib [00:15:37] That's right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean the 10 percent rule we'd see them up around six hundred square feet reasonably easy. That could be four hundred to your point. Yeah. Somewhere right in that range.

Chris Shebib [00:15:50] Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. You were saying something and I cut you off.

Chris Shebib [00:15:54] Yeah. No problem. No problem. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean it's hitting that one. Central right 180 and rental costs, one percent of that being the monthly rent, which is rare and hard to find in today's market, and the cash on cash for that is is right around 10, 12 percent, which is also, again, one of those strong metrics to be hitting. Yeah. So that's that's roughly. Now, the interesting thing here is that you don't have to build it on a slab. And so if you have a bigger plot of land, you can also put it put in footings in a foundation. You could also rough that in for potentially it to be its own secondary suite down the road at some point. You know, as we well know, density is increasing. The mandate from the province and the municipalities is density. And so we know that this is the garden, which is just the next iteration of let's provide more density per lot throughout the municipalities, especially in an area like the Golden Horseshoe, right?

Chris Shebib [00:16:55] Absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting, because if you look at it also from a corporate perspective, if you have already like let's say you have a four unit property and you add a garden suite, then it can take you into the commercial realm and that cap rate could be pretty low. Sorry, the value add using the cap rate could be pretty substantial, right? Yeah. So, I mean, do you think that you'd be able to refinance because just looking at like I don't know, do you know what the cap rate is in Embury at this time for multiverses.

Chris Shebib [00:17:31] Yeah. So just generally speaking, cap rate is going to be around thirty three point five on a purchase. It's going to be around four point five, four point seventy five on every five. OK, so there's slightly different rate in that range.

Chris Shebib [00:17:46] Yeah. So if we did four point seventy five cap rate on eighteen hundred per month, so I mean technically according to this that's an additional almost four hundred fifty thousand of value that you're hiding. I don't know if you'd be able to actually refinance that money out, but theoretically that's a pretty good ad for one hundred eighty thousand or two hundred thousand.

Chris Shebib [00:18:08] Yeah, it's huge trade and and because this is like second suites six, seven years ago where we have a burden of education, the burden of proof with the appraisers and with the lenders, just just an acclimation process, right. For these new units to be there. And so even on the residential side, to your point, on the reify, it's it is a little bit trickier. Not every lender is ready to recognize the rents or the value just yet, but they're getting there reasonably quickly.

Chris Shebib [00:18:36] Yeah, yeah. I know that that was an issue maybe two years ago in Hamilton or even like in other areas to where people were adding these legal second suites and appraisers weren't necessarily understanding the difference between illegal seconds. We in an illegal second unit. Yeah. And so a lot of people were struggling to get the total value. They were spending a lot of money. They weren't able to necessarily pull it all out at the time.

Chris Shebib [00:19:00] Yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. So yeah.

Chris Shebib [00:19:02] Yeah, I can see that maybe being the case here, but Gurnon Suites are definitely an interesting thing to look at. Would you say that that's probably one of the more important things that you've been focusing on lately?

Chris Shebib [00:19:15] Yeah, for sure. And the reason is, is the Arawa and the cash flow to the market kind of ebbs and flows. Right. So, you know, the way I think about that and suggest investors think about that is look at that long term 60 year trend line and make your strategic decisions from that macro data and then make your more micro decision decisions and tactical decisions from the more granular data. And so when the market's ebbing and flowing, it creates openings. And the garden suites are just one flavor of this opening that I think will. Again, it's a spike in our why it's a spike in cash flow and investors over and over and over will eat up that cash flow. And so we know investors will pay until there's only two four hundred left of cash flow per month. Right. So today, when we're sitting at fifteen hundred in cash flow, that is a very definitive indicator and a sign that the value is going to go up until that shrinks down to two to four hundred. And then and then everybody will enjoy the cushion of that two to four hundred along with their super strong ahli in return. But until then, we have this the best of both worlds. Right. Which is very unique opportunity to get that cash flow and the ROIC for a period of time and then ride that wave of refinancing as the value goes up. So absolutely. It's that repeatability for sure. Sure.

Chris Shebib [00:20:43] Yeah. I have two questions for you. Number one, are you buying, like prefab garden suites? And number two, what are the general timelines from start to finish to just go with the property that has nothing in the garden to having that completed garden suite?

Chris Shebib [00:21:00] Yeah, I'm keeping my eye open for prefab. I've not found anything just yet. Personally, I think it's only a matter of time right there. There. Your question is, is begging to be asked in a natural. And I share the same question. I think there's an opportunity there in the market for for a company to create those prefabs in a really functional and and nice space. But, you know, the idea, you know, they'll show up when the slabs port or when the foundations ready and the subfloor is on and they just drop the prefab on top. That's that's got to be coming as garden suites become more and more pervasive. Unfortunately, not yet, which is why that kind of higher price tag of one eighty two hundred, as is our average cost right now.

Chris Shebib [00:21:53] Right. So they're framing they're doing everything on site just like they would like a new home. Pretty much.

Chris Shebib [00:22:00] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And sorry, your second question line.

Chris Shebib [00:22:04] So how how long does it take from start to finish.

Chris Shebib [00:22:07] Yeah, so very much. On a related note, I budgeted around six, seven months. So if we're going to do a second suite and a garden suite budget around six seven for that rental, that's that's partially because we're digging new services back. So you want to have a foreign patronage pipe and a one inch supply line. And so that adds a little bit of time to it. But also, just as we know, material costs are going up, the availability is tougher. Yeah. And so contractor timelines are a little bit stressed right now.

Chris Shebib [00:22:42] So on that note, with the utilities going to that garden suite, are they digging up the driveway or whatever to put everything underneath? Or is there another way to to get the utilities like, say, hydro? Can they go over the top or. It has to be underground?

Chris Shebib [00:22:59] No, you can do either for Hydro, OK, really, the and that's the easier of the of the utilities to go back there, the trickier ones just from a cost and logistics standpoint being the drainage and water line. Yeah. And generally speaking, they want you to go around the house and join in on your lot line, but join in and in front of the house before it hits the city's utility line. And so there's even the municipalities are kind of working out the logistics of this and. Yeah, where where do they start and stop and where do you start and stop? And that's it's getting ironed out in the city like Barrie. That's a bit of a front runner on this. Yeah, but other municipalities like Branford and Peterboro, Oshawa is is not as close as some others. And so they'll be some I think some of the same growing pains around those particular lines of demarcation between the contractor and the city or the owner in the city in the future in those municipalities as well.

Chris Shebib [00:24:01] Yeah, but it provides a pretty cool opportunity. Like I'm thinking, for example, in Weland, where there is an opportunity to convert a property into three units like the main property. And then if you're able to add an accessory dwelling as well, a garden suite, now you can turn this one unit property into potentially four units. So if you're doing that, you're ripping everything up anyway and it's going to take you six months to do to convert the main house. You might as well do that garden suite as well and just transforms the whole the whole project.

Chris Shebib [00:24:32] Yeah, great. It's a it's a huge opportunity for upside.

Chris Shebib [00:24:36] Yeah. Yeah. But definitely you have to take into account that you're like if you're doing something like this, you're probably going to have to tear apart that lot to dig up the utilities and have the sewers installed and all that. So, yeah, it's an interesting concept.

Chris Shebib [00:24:52] Yeah. And you're right, it's a little more disruptive, but once you're into that, Rayno, you know, maximize use of that plot of land and and like we touched on earlier, better yet, positioning for future density opportunities as well at the same time as much as possible.

Chris Shebib [00:25:09] Yeah, that's interesting. Are you digging up a foundation for your garden suites or are you laying it down on a like a concrete pad?

Chris Shebib [00:25:16] So they're new for me, and so I've not done a basement yet. As I look at my existing properties, I've definitely got my eye on that, though that's going to be something as the municipalities allow it. And as I get new properties, I'm definitely looking for those larger plots of land. I'll give you an example. One of the properties I just visited recently was 60 feet wide. Four hundred feet deep. Wow. And so the 10 percent rule, this was in very 10 percent rule. That thing could be a 20 foot garden suite potentially right now, or I think there'd be other limitations that would probably kick in before that 10 percent rule was maxed out. Yeah, but think of the creativity you could have there with a basement and a main floor. With that kind of square footage. You have it a thousand chuch.

Chris Shebib [00:26:08] Well, you could potentially do a triplex there if it's if it's allowed or if you have like two stories in a basement, it could be. Yeah, that's interesting. So are you able to, like, kind of break down an example of like a case study of a property in bury what? You'd be purchasing it for the renovation costs and then also what you're expected Airbnb might be?

Chris Shebib [00:26:32] Yeah. So if you think of a higher end home and bury your purchased, your purchase price is probably going to be higher end. I mean, to story and for the main house. Yeah, well done. Well finished. Your purchase price with a garden suite already installed, probably around million. OK, you could put in a secondary suite in that home for around 50, 60 thousand in the basement. And so you've got a two storey upstairs basement apartment downstairs and garden suite now for one point zero five. And then you can verify that. And again, these er these there is a burden of proof still on a burden of education on these areas. I think you're going to land easily in the one point two mark though for that higher end property with those three units. And that's based on an extrapolation of some higher end duplexes that are out there today, landing in the one point, one range with a third unit already. So and again with that and that thing's going to cash flow for fifteen hundred a month. Right, and so we know that that I think I know at least this is conjecture, not fact, but I believe that that fifteen hundred is going to get eaten up, meaning at one point two is going to climb higher as investors recognize an opportunity.

Chris Shebib [00:27:56] It makes sense. I'm a little bit surprised that like a five hundred square foot garden suite will generate eighteen hundred, and I think that's pretty impressive. That's a no brainer, right, for with the numbers. You're saying that's definitely worth it.

Chris Shebib [00:28:11] Yeah, and you're right. It's it's not a linear kind of progression of square footage to rental prices. And so where I see the market speaking to the preference on rentals is one garden suites of the top of the heap there. In terms of preference rates, a square rental price per square foot is highest in those garden suites, four or five hundred square feet for eighteen hundred. Like I said, that's that's really high. And then the duplexes and even the basements in the main floor, those would be second preference. Third preference would be the apartment building scenario. Right. Where the rents are still really strong. They're just not as strong as I find duplexes in the garden suites. And so, yeah, I mean it's all about the numbers when you factor in your numbers. And we're we're fortunate right now that real estate's doing well, as is the rental market. And so everything is continuing to drive. But yeah, it's like there's this hierarchy of preference for that. The market speaking to garden suite, second suite and then the apartment building.

Chris Shebib [00:29:13] Yeah, well, I can definitely see at some point if you have a large enough lot with a garden suite where you might be able to separate a portion of the lot, where the garden sweet is to kind of create like a mini backyard within within the property. And then you could potentially command an even higher rent that way because you have full privacy if you're a tenant there.

Chris Shebib [00:29:30] That's exactly it right now. And this is something that's pretty fun with these garden suites is separating a little privacy fence here, barbecue area for each unit and creating that that kind of dedicated space for each one is it's a it's an area of the project that I'm surprised as as as enjoyable as it is, it's kind of fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Shebib [00:29:55] Maybe before we move on, I just wanted to quickly ask you about your top ups there. What scenario would in your opinion, would it make sense to go for a top up versus maybe just using those funds to invest in another project?

Chris Shebib [00:30:11] Yeah, I mean, for me, I do a reasonable, in-depth financial analysis on these projects, so I'm getting the top ups. But just rough math, if I look at a seven hundred thousand dollar purchase for a bungalow and I top it up now, I've got a high end, two storey, 20 square foot space upstairs as one unit, a nice nine hundred square foot, two bedroom, three bedroom in the basement. So I'm probably going to get 20 in the basement. Three thousand upstairs, five thousand a gross rent plus a garage or sheds if I have them and my RV on that project, my rental costs probably around to 50, my RV one point one. And so just the rough math on that starts to look pretty favorable from a cash flow and our life standpoint, you add a garden suite, our future potential for a garden suite on to that same project and it starts to look really beautiful.

Chris Shebib [00:31:11] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, everything you've said so far has been all about adding value to a property and highest and best use. I don't know if there's some background noise here on my home and my neighbors are doing some work in the yard, so. Yeah. Anyway, yeah. So adding value and then refinancing, which makes total sense. And what you're doing is you're always looking for ways to improve a property, take advantage of whatever new rules exist through the media politics. And yeah, I mean the numbers work based on what you're saying and you're increasing your cash flow and everything just looks great. So good for you for for figuring out a way to constantly improve.

Chris Shebib [00:31:52] Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And I love that. It just feels like such a crazy good time for investors to be able to plant the seeds for another big upswing in a year on that same property or in two years on that same property. Beyond just letting mortgage pay down and appreciation in cash will accrue and refinancing at three, four years. I feel like there's new variables being introduced right now that allow us to do that and accelerate that whole process, which is phenomenal, right?

Chris Shebib [00:32:22] Sure. And the truth is, if the higher your cash flow, the the more you can refinance moving into the future, because as a property values continue to increase. Obviously, if you don't have strong cash flow and you're refinancing at a higher amount, that's going to that's going to further reduce your cash flow and potentially bring you into the negative.

Chris Shebib [00:32:42] So, yeah, exactly right. And so to your point, a bigger cash flow sits there when the Arabs pushed up, your still got all kinds of cash flow cushion to be able to to to capitalize on that like that ATM concept, right?

Chris Shebib [00:32:55] Yeah, exactly.

Chris Shebib [00:32:56] It's a more cash move on. Do more investing for sure.

Chris Shebib [00:32:59] Yeah. There you go. So we covered a bunch of stuff. Did we forget anything here or did we pretty much cover everything you wanted to know?

Chris Shebib [00:33:08] I think we we covered some good ground.

Chris Shebib [00:33:10] OK, sounds good. So let's go let's go on to the random five five random questions. You just tell me the first thing that comes to mind. Number one, if you owned a restaurant, what kind of food would it serve?

Chris Shebib [00:33:24] Well, jeez, good question, I'm not much of a foodie. I interestingly, my philosophy, if I could have my way. So this I'll give you a long winded answer to this, if that's OK, sure. So I would I would serve delicious fast food. That's what I would serve like healthy, delicious fast food. There's a glut in the market for that right now. Like when I'm busy and I want to hit a drive thru, I don't I don't want garbage, food. I end up sometimes settling for that because there's not good, delicious, healthy fast food available. So that would be to me, there's an opening in the market now. I think it's more expensive than people would like. And it's not an easy problem to solve because the food is very it doesn't store well that healthier food tends to not store quite as well. But that's what I would do. And for me, like if I had my way, I would just take a pill for all the nutritional intake I needed in a day. And I would worry I would spend my time enjoying other things. So that's like that's me wanting to compartmentalize nutritional intake and food to that point so I could enjoy more exercise, more interactions with people. And that would be my that would be my my utopian kind of vision for where would food fit into my life is not much of a foodie.

Chris Shebib [00:34:44] OK, but I like the idea of like a really healthy fast food type of place. Yeah, that's. Yeah. OK, number

George El Masri [00:34:50] two, if you could convince everyone in

Chris Shebib [00:34:52] the world to do one thing at one point in time, what would that thing be?

Chris Shebib [00:34:59] I would say to do something good for somebody else and to me, this is one of the great mysteries of human existence to get philosophical about it is like when we it feels so good to do something good. And the better it is, the more altruistic it is. The more giving it is, the better it feels. Right. And so selfishly, you would think humans, if we were selfish, which we inherently are to some degree, would capitalize on that more and do more good things because it just feels so good. And every time without fail, it feels good. But we and myself included, can get caught forgetting that and and foregoing that for other things that are more maybe not even immediate gratification is the right way to say it. But but I would say if we could get everybody to do one thing, reconnect with that idea that doing something good for somebody is good for them and good for you. It's a win win. And and maybe we could get that snowball rolling and building fast.

Chris Shebib [00:36:06] Now, there you go. That's a good answer. Number three, if you could dedicate your life to solving one problem, what problem would you choose?

Chris Shebib [00:36:21] Yeah, interesting,

Chris Shebib [00:36:23] that's a softball questions for

Chris Shebib [00:36:25] you. Yeah, these are not the light ones. Yeah. Yeah, I think I would say energy, energy, not not like fossil fuels or world energy, but individual energy. And the reason I say that is the more I kind of assess good days and bad. And I heard Tim Ferriss give a simple kind of rating for each day that he uses. He got it from somebody else. I can't remember who he cited, but it was just a negative three negative to negative one zero one, two, three rating right on each day. And he was talking about he was asked on a podcast actually what what fundamental things do you do? What what kind of anchor points do you have in your life to try and maximize that rating on each day? So he gave his answer to that. But as I assess that notion day over day for individuals, I think energy is one of those really pivotal pieces. Right. How do we manage our not our time and our projects? Those are all important, but our energy and making sure that it's good and clean. And because when we have, again, very much in keeping with the last answer, when we have good, clean, pure energy in us, the people around us can respond to that and we can give them more. And then we all went, right. So if I could solve that problem and I think it would change the world,

Chris Shebib [00:37:45] I agree with you 100 percent. Yeah. And a lot of that has to do with, I guess, what you take in and like you just mentioned, Tim Ferriss. So if you're constantly taking in good things, your energy is going to change. But if you're constantly watching the news or hanging around people with the same negative attitude, then that's going to reflect within your energy as well.

Chris Shebib [00:38:07] So one hundred percent. Yeah. There you

Chris Shebib [00:38:09] go. Number four, what's your what's your favorite piece of clothing? Your favorite piece that you own.

Chris Shebib [00:38:17] Clothing. And I'm not a huge clothes guy. I, I like exercise clothes, so I'll I'll say this because I'm not even sure what my answer is, but OK, golf clothing has come light years from from where it was. So golf shirts under armor, clothing in general. It is so incredibly comfortable. Nike golf fans are like they're they're amazing to me. They're super comfortable. So like it it's not like it's not amazing looking to me. It's pretty, pretty vanilla, but man, it's comfortable to wear. So that would happen. Yeah.

Chris Shebib [00:38:55] I just got my first pair of golf pants a couple of weeks ago, so definitely I can attest to their comfort.

Chris Shebib [00:39:02] The crazy good.

Chris Shebib [00:39:03] Yeah. Number five, what was the last song you listened to.

Chris Shebib [00:39:09] Gees, I was listening to music just as I exercised earlier, I was listening, so I'll give you the playlist, remember the songs, because it wasn't my playlist, but it was the rock's playlist. OK, so on Spotify, I came across as I was looking for a good exercise playlist. I played the rock's playlist on my and when I exercised earlier today. I can't remember the songs on it though.

Chris Shebib [00:39:31] OK, cool. Yeah that's that's a I didn't know that you can like listen to celebrities playlist, but that's interesting.

Chris Shebib [00:39:37] Yeah.

Chris Shebib [00:39:39] Yeah. So that concludes the podcast. You want to tell people how they can reach you and what services you provide.

Chris Shebib [00:39:46] Yeah so I do, I do training and education and really what I'm focused on in training education is bridging the gap between theory and practice. And so it's really, you know, enough education to do what I refer to as informed action taking. So, you know, we don't want to jump at everything we see without education. We don't want to be caught in analysis paralysis. So let's get enough information, enough education. And it's a little different for each person. But hit that tipping point, put it into action. And so that's the training and education side of it. I do strategy planning again. One of the biggest things I see investors struggle with is it's not so much their way to me or why is almost always their family and legacy some flavor of those two things, but more of their purpose, right? Like what? Why am I doing what I'm doing today? Today is tough. Why am I doing this again? And so tying these actions into the outcome, which ties to the why is really that strategy planning to put a rudder on that ship and a compass on the whole initiative that you're working on investing or whatever it might be. And then I work with investors on two ways. For those who love real estate, don't have the time, interest or aptitude. I do passive investing partnerships and those who want to be directly connected to their investment business. I do guided investing, so I consult with clients on them running their projects, but having all the answers, I'm kind of teed up and consultations as needed throughout their projects range from, you know, planning acquisition through to stability and renting and profitability. So those are the services that I do today. People can reach me at Bluewater Property Group Dotcom. There's contact form there. You can reach me at Chris at Blue Orchard Property Group, Dotcom through email. Those are probably the two best ways.

Chris Shebib [00:41:40] OK, perfect. Yeah, we'll include your information in the show notes as well. I appreciate you sharing all that stuff, Chris. All the best to you moving forward with your garden suites and all your projects. And thanks again for your time, George.

Chris Shebib [00:41:52] It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Chris Shebib [00:41:54] OK, we'll be in touch, OK?

George El Masri [00:41:57] As always, thank you for listening, I hope you enjoyed the content, and if you did, I asked you to share this with a friend, with a family member or somebody who might benefit. And it's always appreciated if you can leave us a review, especially if you're listening to it on the Apple podcast app or if you're on YouTube, give us a like subscribe comment and your

Chris Shebib [00:42:16] support is always appreciated. Thank you very much.

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