Table of Contents - Real Estate Investing by Campaign with Wayne Hillier
Dave Debeau [00:00:09] Hey, everybody, this Dave Debeau, another episode of the Property Profits Real Estate podcast today, it's my pleasure. All the way zooming in from Edmonton, Alberta, Mr. Wayne Hillier, how are you doing today?
Wayne Hillier [00:00:24] I'm awesome, Dave. Thanks for having me on.
Dave Debeau [00:00:27] All right, you guys, if you haven't seen or heard of Wayne, you should, because he is not only a very successful real estate entrepreneur, he's also a very successful real estate pod caster with the real estate investor dad podcast. And Wayne's been investing in real estate since twenty thirteen. And he does a couple of different things. He does long term buy and hold, focusing primarily on the BR strategy. Plus he does some creative stuff with agreements for sale and rent. So I'm looking forward to our chat here today as well.
Wayne Hillier [00:00:58] I'm excited.
Dave Debeau [00:00:59] Well, let's jump in. Let's jump right into the guts of things. First of all, for those folks that aren't familiar with what the heck an agreement for sale is, give us an idea of what that is.
Wayne Hillier [00:01:10] Agreement for sales are a seller financing strategy in its simplest form. To explain it, it is the seller offers you seller financing. They keep the mortgage and the title in their name. You get to take possession of the property. It's a lot like a BTB, except the title doesn't transfer. So what it is, is the
Dave Debeau [00:01:30] investor take back
Wayne Hillier [00:01:32] mortgage. Yes, yes. And typically with a BTB, they're going to give you a mortgage with their equity in this situation. They don't need equity in order to give you a quote unquote, mortgage. So it's a really cool way to get in the properties. If you're having trouble with mortgage qualifications, if you maybe your capital mortgages or you don't have as much money because a lot of situations, sometimes the seller doesn't have that much equity. So it's a low equity, no equity situation. You can get into it for low or no money down.
Dave Debeau [00:02:00] So why would a seller want to do an agreement?
Wayne Hillier [00:02:05] I mean, typically most people are looking for the desperate seller, someone who has to move quick for work, someone who has been on the market for a while, or someone who just doesn't have a whole heck of a lot of equity. So they're willing to work with you in regards to terms so that they can get what they need. And a lot of times just out of the property or just get that little bit of money that they need.
Dave Debeau [00:02:27] Yeah. So somebody is maybe upside down with their mortgage. In other words, they owe more money than than the properties might be worth. So they don't have enough equity to listed with a realtor. They'd have to go negative to actually sell their property. You come in there, you offer them this solution or able to get in with little or no money, maybe give them a thousand bucks to help them to move or whatever your deal is. And you don't get actual ownership of the property yet. However, you get this agreement, which is legally binding, which gives you complete control over the
Wayne Hillier [00:03:02] property, right? Yeah, absolutely. We get all the benefits of mortgage, then we get all the benefits of appreciation, cash flow, everything. Like I said, it's it's almost like a delayed title transfer. They're going to keep it in their name, but we get all the benefits of
Dave Debeau [00:03:16] a mortgage stays in their name. How are you getting the benefit of mortgage paid up
Wayne Hillier [00:03:21] while they have their underlying mortgage that's already existing? And what we typically do with those types of sellers is we mimic or copy that same mortgage or loan with the same interest rate, same terms, same amortization. So every payment that I make to the seller, it brings my loan down with them. At the same time they're taking that money and paying down their loan. So are both of our loans are going down at the same rate. So at the end of the term, whatever that may be, I owe them exactly what they owe the bank.
Dave Debeau [00:03:51] All right. Very good. So there. Yeah, so they're not benefiting from their mortgage pay down, but on the other hand, you're the guy making their mortgage payments, so. Yes, kind of makes sense. How do you make sure that they actually pay their mortgage and they aren't sticking the money in their pocket
Wayne Hillier [00:04:10] because that is a risk and is the number one risk when you're doing these things. And normally there's a lot of things you can do. Some people will just ask for statements every three or four months to make sure that the payments are being made. And the other option is what we do is we set up joint bank accounts with the sellers. So a cheap one dollar or free joint bank accounts, their mortgage and property taxes come out of that accounts. And every month we put the money in so they can see the money coming in and we can see the money getting paid.
Dave Debeau [00:04:39] Nice. And are you able to set that up so that all they can do is see the account? They can actually do anything with the account?
Wayne Hillier [00:04:47] Yes, there are options, but we only normally keep a small reserve of one month's expenses in there. So we're not really too too concerned. I mean, me personally, I don't like dealing with the extremely desperate sellers. In my opinion. If they've had trouble in the past and made bad decisions in the past, I don't. Want to be associated with them because they're very likely to make those same decisions again.
Dave Debeau [00:05:12] Yeah, at least you want to make sure it's locked in tight so they can't screw around.
Wayne Hillier [00:05:16] Yeah, yeah, exactly. And everyone that we've done, they've been extremely grateful because normally, like like you said, they think they're in some sort of a situation where they don't have many options. A lot of times they're going to lose tens of thousands of dollars by trying to get out of this or they have to become a landlord, which they don't want to do, or they're
Dave Debeau [00:05:32] or they're going to walk away from the house and they're they're going to get foreclosed on, which will screw their credit up for a long time.
Wayne Hillier [00:05:39] Exactly. So they have a problem. We have a solution. Everyone that we've dealt with that has been extremely grateful.
Dave Debeau [00:05:45] Excellent. Excellent. OK, well, thanks for clarifying that. So tell us a little bit about how you got into the whole thing back in twenty thirteen and what your goals are.
Wayne Hillier [00:05:55] You know, I, I moved to Alberta, Edmonton from Ontario, St. Catherine's and you know, I had that dream. I had that Alberta dream that I was going to come here and I was going to make lots of money and then stay for six months and go back just like everybody else did. But what I I met my beautiful wife two weeks after moving here. She was my neighbor. We hit it off right away. I found my career, but a couple of years in and then I. I kind of hit that wall. I had all this. This drive to go drive out to Alberta, drop everything, leave family and friends behind, and then I achieved it and then I'm like, well, this isn't enough. And you look around at everybody else who comes from the east and they buy a big truck and they buy a bunch of snowmobiles and toys and that's it. They have a
Dave Debeau [00:06:40] nurse.
Wayne Hillier [00:06:42] So that just wasn't for me. I've always kind of had that entrepreneurial spirit. I've always wanted to continue to grow. And I was working on a job and on a night shift and all the guys were sitting around the desk talking about their investments and what they're doing. And one guy told me that he was doing real estate and really interested me. He was nice enough to kind of point me in the right direction. And he never really quite mentored me, but he gave me the books and where to look. And then I just ran with it. And, you know, it's it's one of those things that it's not like a career where you can kind of get that ticket and then you've kind of plateaued. You can always grow more and more with real estate. So it's always a continuous challenge for me, which I love.
Dave Debeau [00:07:23] Yeah, that's very, very cool. And so tell us a little bit about your your personal philosophy when it comes to real estate, because you're doing a combination of. Long term buy and hold, so I believe you focus on the BR strategy, I'll get you tell us a little bit about that in a second. Plus, you do some creative type deals with these agreements for sale and rent. So plus you're working full time and you've got a family. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your philosophy around real estate investing.
Wayne Hillier [00:07:55] It's not easy. You mentioned in the podcast earlier the reason why I started the podcast, this whole brand, the real estate investor database, because, like you said, is a lot of people got a lot of things going on and it's hard to find the time to build something for yourself and still be a good father, still be a good employee. So we me and my wife developed some amazing routines to make sure that everyone is getting the right level of attention, including my marriage. And we've just we've just been building and building and building. We work we work in campaigns. We that's the way we like to kind of approach things. We like
Dave Debeau [00:08:30] to. But what do you mean by that?
Wayne Hillier [00:08:31] Well, we like we like to you know, let's say we want to get a property that's a three month campaign, OK? We say, OK, we're going to get a property within the next three months. What do we need to do? We need to find a partner. We need to find a property. We need to find, you know, make a big list and then we just go out. That's the only thing we focus on. And we build our routine around that until we achieve that result. And that's that's what we've been doing every time that we just keep going. Campaign campaigning, we'll normally do two or three campaigns at a time. And we've just been growing it that way. We started out with agreement for sales. Much like most investors, you don't have a whole lot of money. You know, we could qualify for a mortgage, but the buy in for real estate is is high 20 percent. Right. So we wanted to find a way to to get into real estate with little money down as well. We wanted to prove ourselves to investors. I didn't want to call up all my family and say, hey, I'm a real estate investor now invest your money with me. Like, you know, they're going to think, oh, yeah, that's cute.
Dave Debeau [00:09:27] In another. What are your harebrained ideas?
Wayne Hillier [00:09:30] Exactly. Exactly. So we wanted to prove ourselves. We wanted to show that we could do it ourselves. So we built it up on our own. And then we started bringing in JV partners for those properties. And then everything just kind of came afterwards. We always wanted to do the strategy. So we that's how we gravitated towards adding secondary suites to
Dave Debeau [00:09:48] maybe explain to folks who aren't familiar with BRRR what that stands for, what that means.
Wayne Hillier [00:09:52] Right, by renovate, rent, refinance and repeat. So you're going to buy a property under value, you're going to renovate it, increase the value. So for us, we had a secondary suite dramatically increases. Yeah. And then you add a renter and then you refinance it and you know, the perfect buyer is getting all of your investment and all of your renovation money out. Sometimes it can be done. Sometimes, you know, maybe you're left with twenty or thirty thousand dollars, but that twenty or thirty thousand dollars left in the investment is a lot better than one hundred thousand dollars. Right. Dramatically increases your r y so you can recycle your money continuously and repeat the process over and over and over again.
Dave Debeau [00:10:31] Very, very cool. So these days is your primary focus on finding those kind of properties or are you also still doing creative deals or rent to own deals and agreements for sale? Everything everyday. You know, marketing out there, if you're looking for looking for properties, some are going to fit the bill for a BRRR some art. There's been opportunities in there for owner financing, some opportunities in there for rental. So, yeah, a lot of
Wayne Hillier [00:10:59] people hate it when I say this. They're like, oh, how do you find your deals or how do you know? Honestly, they really just fall in or lap. We put it out there, we put it out there that way. Real estate investors where we're active on social media. And, you know, it's best practice to focus on one thing, not to follow the shiny ball syndrome or the shiny item syndrome. But we get so many people coming up to us and saying, hey, I've got this situation, I've got this thing, you know, what can you do? And because I have all of these these tools and strategies and techniques that I've that I've learned and mastered over the years, I can take any opportunity and I can make money off it. You know, if someone says, hey, I've got this rental property or, you know, that I can't do anything with or I've got this this house that needs a little bit of work, I proposed to them what I think would be the best outcome for them will be the best outcome for me and we make it happen. So I don't necessarily stick to one thing. I just focus on those three things.
Dave Debeau [00:11:51] What good old on the ground we call a transaction engineer.
Wayne Hillier [00:11:55] Exactly. Exactly. I love it. And and it likes me. It keeps me. It keeps my mind going. I love growing a lot of solving problems. I love helping people. So it's just what I love doing. And that's what helps me continue to do is because I love it.
Dave Debeau [00:12:09] All right. Well, we touched a little bit earlier about how you and your wife work on campaigns. I love that idea. But then you're juggling a few different campaigns at one time. But at least you got your checklist per thing that you're focused on. And you know what needs to get checked off. Let me let's dig in just for a minute, a little bit more on. How you're able to balance things working at your job full time, working with your spouse on your real estate investing business, still being a husband, still being a dad, what are your suggestions around or how have you made that work? Well, for you?
Wayne Hillier [00:12:50] The campaign was one of the big ones because we were taking on way too much and we were trying to pick away at different things and nothing was getting
Dave Debeau [00:13:00] so sorry for. Let me ask you, how did you get your spouse on board? One hundred percent in the first place, or was she right on board from day one?
Wayne Hillier [00:13:08] I clubbed her over the head and I dropped her.
Dave Debeau [00:13:12] Glad that would work for you.
Wayne Hillier [00:13:13] But, you know, I when that fella from work told me that investing in real estate, the first book he told me to get was investing in real estate in Canada. I'm butchering the name of the book by Dun Dun Campbell. And I read that in an afternoon. And then I called up my wife and I said I figured it out. We're investing in real estate and she's very supportive. She said, Yeah, that sounds great. And I said, no, you don't understand. We are investing in real estate. We you have to be a hundred percent on board. Otherwise this isn't going to work. She said, Yeah, sure, sure. And I'm like, OK. And then I started giving her some things to learn. And then she's a little paranoid and she wasn't as emotionally invested in it as I was at first. But then she started seeing some of the results. She started seeing what could do for us. And then now she's one hundred percent. She runs the whole business. I'm just the guy that puts on a jacket and socks on podcasts. She's the one that's doing it full time. Every day. She manages everything. We talk on my breaks and we talk on my drive and then drive back and we strategize. But that campaign is everything because I can we can list things out and she can just knock off the tasks. And then we develop just this amazing routine that that we stick to. You know, it sounds simple, but going
Dave Debeau [00:14:31] to give us an idea of what your routine is. I'd love to hear
Wayne Hillier [00:14:34] it sounds so simple, but, you know, every morning I spend 10, 15 minutes of my daughter sitting, drinking my coffee and watching TV with her. It doesn't seem like much, but that she can rely on that. She can she knows that that is your daughter at this time. She is for turning five and may. And then when I get home from work at five, five to seven family time, we turn the email notifications off. When we only spend time eating, we play a game. We do a little bit of homework with her teaching, her math or geography or something like that. And then I put her to bed at seven and then that's when I get back to work. But I try once or twice a month. I might have an event or something that prevents me from doing that. But she knows every day she comes home from school, dad's going to be there. We're going to have supper as a family and she can rely on that. And then same thing with Sundays, Sundays, Sunday mornings. I normally do podcast episodes, but afternoon we do something as a family and it keeps the balance. It keeps our relationship intact as well, that Wayne's not always talking about the deals at the dinner table and it works for us. It's yeah.
Dave Debeau [00:15:37] Smart way. Well, my friend, time flies when we're having fun. If people want to find out more about you, if people want to find out more about your podcast, what should they do?
Wayne Hillier [00:15:47] Podcast, real estate investor, dead, iTunes, Spotify, all of them there. It's all over. All the platforms, Facebook and Instagram. You can find me well. My name is Wayne Hillier. My business is Prairie Home Investments and Instagram. My handle is real estate investor debt.
Dave Debeau [00:16:05] Nice. Wayne, thank you very much for sharing some time and and your wisdom especially about putting things in balance. Thank you very much.
Wayne Hillier [00:16:14] Thank you very much for having me today.
Dave Debeau [00:16:15] All right, everybody, take care. Talk to you next time and stay tuned for our next episode, Bubba. Well, thanks very much for checking out the property profits podcast and you like what we're doing here. Please head on over to iTunes, subscribe read us and leave us to review it. Very, very much appreciated. And if you're looking to create a regular flow of inbound investor inquiries about your real estate deals, then I invite you to attend one of my upcoming live online demonstrations. And you can check that out at Investor Attraction Demo Dotcom Ticker.