Rebounding from a $400,000 multi-unit loss with Kasey Wong

Rebounding from a $400,000 multi-unit loss with Kasey Wong
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Table of Contents -Rebounding from a $400,000 multi-unit loss with Kasey Wong

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George El-Masri [00:00:02] Thanks for tuning in, I spoke with Kasey Wong today. It was such a good conversation about multiunit, I'm finding that a lot of the listeners of the well off podcast seem to like the more sophisticated stuff. I think there's enough information in here for for all sorts of people that are if you're starting out there. He talked about some of the mistakes he made. One of them actually was a four hundred thousand dollar mistake when he bought a couple buildings in Hamilton. And we discussed like some of the things he would have done differently if he can go back in time and redo that whole project. We talked about how to make your all inclusive runs more efficient. Let's say you're buying a building and there is 10 units in there and there are all inclusive rents. What can you do right off the bat to reduce your expenses? So some tips and tricks there. And we also talked about how to self manage, so not hire property management and how to be able to scale up to four or five hundred dollars just doing it yourself by basically delegating certain tasks which would save quite a bit of money. So I hope you'll enjoy the episode. As you guys may have heard on the last episode. I'm looking into some multi units in while in St. Catherine's, that sort of area, and in Hamilton as well, four to six stores. If you guys are interested in finding out some more information, I'd be more than happy to discuss with you. You can reach out to me at George at well off Dossie, so enjoy the episode. Here we go. Welcome to the podcast, where the goal is to motivate, inspire and share success principles. I'm here with K.C. Wong, the CEO of Cokely Asset Management Cases really well known for being a multiunit investor, works with a lot of or owns a lot of apartment buildings and does tons of turnover there and the whole refinancing strategy and whatnot. So we're going to get into larger commercial apartment buildings and strategies around that. So, Casey, thank you for making the trip today.

Kasey Wong [00:01:51] Thank you. Thank you. I just want to correct you here. George is actually the CEO is actually my title is Drive Around, Drink Coffee All Day.

George El-Masri [00:01:58] I was going to say I just checked your LinkedIn. That's what it's up there. Oh, did it. Oh, yeah. You got to change it. All right, cool. So the way I like to start off your cases by asking you about your childhood. So if you have certain memories and certain things that you want to share but where you grew up and whatnot, OK,

Kasey Wong [00:02:12] I grew up I grew up actually in Malvin Novogen, Scarbro, near Shepparton, Nielsen. So we grew up in that neighborhood. I'll go for a little bit farther back in the day a little bit further. And this is that my parents, they actually want that house. It was a lottery from the government. They want to move people into Scarbro because nobody was there. And when they bought it was a thirty five year no payments or something like that. And it was. No payments up to thirty five years, or if you sell, you would have to pay back seventeen thousand or something like that. Wow. OK, and then that's how we got into the Scarbro Sheppard Nielsen area. Grew up in that area where is very ethnic. So a lot of my friends were from India. They're Muslim, eat at their house, have the the good curry and all. And so at that time it wasn't that bad. So Malverde sort of had a bad rap now. So grew up near, went to the gray owl, went to Hillyard. Some people may know grade seven. And then I moved out into Depositary and Scarbro, which is Kennedy and hunting wood. So Kennedy hunting would these houses, which had garages I mean, like my friends, one of my friend was like, oh my goodness, you're rich in the garage. Yeah. So I moved over to to John Kennedy grade seven to essentially like high school university. And then I went to Sajani McDonald, you know, very, very blue collar family. My parents my dad was an engineer, but he was a draftsman here. So he studied engineering in China, in Hong Kong. My mom, she wasn't educated at all. So she was like a technologist. So she would actually troubleshoot motherboards for leach technologies that supplied CFT or those broadcast stations. So she would actually just do, you know, sort of fixing, you know, have that little sorta thing and fixing motherboards. So very, very blue collar, but. They actually saw that that the background to this is that they bought that little house, sold it

George El-Masri [00:04:29] that they received.

Kasey Wong [00:04:30] They want to see. They want they want that house. Then they moved over to the haunted Whitney Kennedy. And then right about the same time when they, I think, sold I think I remember in grade, I think it was a great seven or eight or was a great six somewhere around there, like Junior Grave. They bought a triplex. They bought a triplex. So that's. A kind of day myself here, so they bought it in nineteen eighty eight. OK, right before the start of the crash, so eighty eight. Eighty nine is when they bought and sold. So they actually bought at one hundred and sixty nine thousand four triplex in Greektown. Wow. OK, so they bought. One year after one of the ninety nine thousand ninety days in a year, it was crazy. We won sixty nine, ninety thousand and they looked at it and it was like, whoa, that's that's a good return. And they sold it. So ninety thousand a year. And at that time they're smiling. Yeah. And I said this to I'm not sure if I said in this YouTube, but like we mentioned the YouTube videos and I was saying that. To my mom just recently, as recent as like three, three, four, five years ago, I go, hey, if you kept that, what would it be worth now? Right. So in hindsight, yeah, like that time, it looked good, right? Ninety thousand one year. That was a lot of money. But if they had held it to now its minimum, it's a million dollars. OK, probably cash only about two to three thousand dollars each and every month. My parents are retired. I give them income so they essentially park the money with me and I just give them the eight to 10 percent. They just need that money. They don't really need the three four hundred thousand. He doesn't need that income. So so they're vested with me and I guarantee that money. But just imagine anybody, because one of the one person or the comments, some people say that I've never let your down downturn in a way I have, because I've seen what my parents like, what they have done, and they sold like I say, they sold too early. Even if they got that, let's say it went flat and went back down to one sixty nine and wrote flat for the ten years, which it did. And now it would have paid off one hundred sixty nine thousand whatever. They put twenty five percent down, so and so forth. Twenty five years has paid off. They have three thousand to three thousand dollars plus cash for each and every month. Just buy that one property. Right. So some people may say I have never lived through a downturn. I started twenty three. All right. So take just that little tidbit away if you're in this game. In this game for long term. So. Then I sort of digress there, but. After that, I went to one high school, university, university, went to describe a campus study, finance investments. Went did five years of that, actually. But first it was science. The science was was funny because I thought I was gonna be a doctor and thank goodness for this for the world that I'm not a doctor. Imagine if I was a doctor but went into, you know, like literally filled all my courses or scraped by. And then I said, OK, you know what? I got to think of something. That's my business. Got into the bomb program. Honestly, I don't I don't think that really the science compared to the business science is hard. Business was a little bit like it was easier. So went into business school. My first job at TTI Management that I was called to, I don't know what's called now, but back to management, I was the best. It was called investment specialists and then I became do to make training, so training other investment specialists, whatever that was. Right. And then moved over to another company called Towers Perrin doing it's almost like a Murcer or Watson. I'm not too familiar with this financial these are more pension consulting companies. So I moved on from there into another like CIBC Asset Management doing that essentially same thing, then moved over to that's when we started buying property. So nineteen ninety nine is when I graduated to two thousand and three is when I bought my first property. OK, ok so like one nineteen ninety nine graduated. Twenty three is when I bought my first property. Twenty two is when we started analyzing properties. My wife and I, my wife, she's a CPA so she. Likes to look at numbers, like to look at the deals, she's more strategic in what we do. She takes a look at where the company is going to be heading, things like I'm very operational, I'll look at the properties and look at details on a daily basis, contractors, staffing, tenant selection, things like that. She's very technical with the accounting, the legal corresponding with agents. So, yeah, our roles are very defined then. Yeah. So two thousand three, a first triplex downtown Toronto and then it sort of ballooned from there it Barry London, Kitchener's as well. So Babri for properties to London, a 10 plex in Kitchener and then hit Hamilton and the Georgia smiling because I lost. I'm the only guy that lost money now we're just talking to I'm just going to I'm pretty like free flowing here. Just talking to Mark Loffler. Yeah. Just before this. And then he's, he's a big player in Hamilton. So Mark was so. Yeah, Mark's a big player and I'm the only guy that lost money in Hamilton. I bought in a rough neighborhood. It was at eight to 12 and an eight. So this is a twenty one. Twenty seven to nine fifty nine Main Street, probably not the best time to buy because I bought a twenty five, the twenty seven. So I lost it was just tenant selection, the tenants that were there not knowing the area. So I guess for your listeners there's a lot more than just numbers. Like a lot of people look at numbers and think about, well, hey, that looks good right now, George. You probably say look at the deal and say, oh, this looks great. Yeah, but there's a lot more into it. There's why is it so cheap? What's a building is a lot of deferred maintenance. How the tenants like the current tenants, the the the prospective tenants you profile in that area, do you do your soft analysis like sitting there on Fridays? I've said this before. Sit there on a Friday and Saturday night and see how I see the activity. Yeah, right. There's going to be. Deal's going down. There's going to be so what I mean by deals like drug deals, prostitution, young kids, deer that's actually on the lease and you have large, loud parties on a Friday and Saturday nights, you have this big house party and everybody's angry and on the good tenants moving out. And you have this this terrible tent that's that's causing problems and chaos. And maybe they're smashing up the place. You can't do anything right. So those are the softer stuff, softer analysis that as an investor you have to do. Right. So just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean anything. So, no, you have to when you when you analyze it's everything. You're the the macro picture right down to the micro, right down to the sniff test. Right. You go in there and say, oh, my goodness, I smell a lot of weed or you see a lot of crap. Homeless people in the hallways every day, every night. Nothing's locked, people breaking in. So these are the things that you have to be aware of as as an investor, as now a business owner. But, yeah, there's Hamilton. There's my story. There's more to it. Like, if you want, I can dig dig deep into problems that I have done. Like I've had issues where it was almost a grow up people, drug deals to boiler, breaking down to borders, breaking down to roof, caving in, tenants not paying. What else I have I have stories. So Hamilton hit Hamilton and then in twenty five to twenty seven we sold got to Hamilton, we weathered that storm. Payback my investors from twenty seven to twenty thirteen a. Sort of lay low can my properties got into property management. So I started like I actually like property management's weird actually. I was going to be a cop one time, too, so I have a lot of stories, but I was going to be a cop one time. This is way back when I left the financial institution. And what else you got into? Property management worked for Brookfield two or three smaller boutiques, property management companies and then corporate. And then I managed about three thousand units in that life span. My career spanned and then. Pretty much now we're about two hundred and forty to fifty units, but you learn a lot, you learn a lot from the big boys and see how they do it and how they structure, not the deals like my wife does that part, but how you run the business. Right. I like that. Like a like a like running the business. I like seeing the properties. It's weird. I just like going there, collecting the change. It's just something it's it's satisfying for me. Right. So whatever, whatever you do find satisfaction what you do. Right. If you don't like it, outsource it. Right. If you don't like something. If I don't like I don't like the administration part. I'm terrible at it. Self administrator of a property administrator and she's a property manager. She does just she just we just hired her three months and four months in. But yeah, if you're not if you're not good at something, this is the best part I tell my kids is that in school you got to do everything all right. You're generalist. You do everything math, science, English, French, social science, whatever. Right. You're doing everything. You have to learn everything. Then when you hear right, George, you're sitting here. If you grizzles, if you're good working with people, you do that. If you're not good at something, I'm not good at changing the toilet. Let's say I am, but let's say I'm not good at it. I mean, all sorts that if I don't want to snake out a sewer line, I don't even have to be there. I could be across the street. I can get my contractors, my plumbers to do it for me. Right. But the best part of working is that I know what you're good at. If I if I'm good at driving around, drinking coffee all day, just looking at the properties and overseeing things, and I'm good at that. I'll do it right. If I'm not good at something like marketing, I'll get somebody else to do if I'm not good at stake out this reliance on somebody else to do it. So working work to what you're good at in all sorts of bad stuff, the stuff that you're not going to get rid of, get rid of it because you're never going to do it right. You're not going to do you're not going to like it. No one. And you're not going do a good job at it. Right. So if you can, it just always it costs the cost factor of can I afford it? If I have to pay it, I have to pay. Yeah, great. So that's my sort of getting into where do we stop off that. So hit Hamilton. Yeah. And the weather, that storm. And then 2013 is when I wanted to number one by a McDonald's franchise. Yeah. I'm not sure if people know about that. I was like I had this money, I sold my soul, my triplex, my downtown Toronto property, which I bought it for one hundred ninety seven thousand five hundred and sold it had a little bit of money, so it wasn't that much like four fifty, four eighty or something and then had a little bit of money. And then nobody want to partner with me. Nick, nobody. I asked my friend to go and my friend goes, I don't have any money or I don't have the money. OK, I just need you to flip the burgers with me. I'll help flip like there during the day because I had two kids or they got two kids at that time. We have four right now. It's like, would you want to flip burgers with this? A franchise? Dude, it's great. And he did want to do it. My good friend Albert is his name, so he didn't want to flip burgers with me. And I heard that now it's eight hundred thousand unencumbered money they have to sit on to to get a franchise and I'm not sure what it makes. At that time. He was making a hundred twenty five thousand net per partner, but that's sort of my journey. And then I hit, then bang, it's hit the multifamily. I hit my my eighteen unit and it's a fifty one fifty one bid in in Waterloo, right across Victoria is a fifty one or fifty two I remember now, but eighteen units basically it's sixteen, sixteen threes one, two and one bachelor. Wow. So it's easy. You know what when you get into the bigger stuff. Yeah. Because it was a little bit better, you can afford to pay your supervisor, landscapers, things like that. And it just makes because once you, once you, once you're earning a little bit more money, it doesn't like the building itself where you don't have to pull the money out. But once you start earning once the cash flow is a little bit better, it makes life a little bit easier. When you when we bought the triplex, I was doing a sewer line. Right. But I got my my contract to do to rent out in August. And I was he was doing it and I was doing it right. You just close your mouth. Right. It splashes up on you. It's so it's not like it's not hard. Hard. Yeah right. But the smaller buildings are smaller houses are harder to cash flow. Then when I hit the the Waterloo than Kitchener and then started building from there. It just made sense because I knew I knew how to scale it. The property was generating better income and it just made so much more sense.

George El-Masri [00:18:45] Yeah, yeah. You obviously you've been through a lot. And the the Hamilton thing was a huge, huge loss for you. You lost a big chunk of money during that. And we were chatting before we got on the podcast that basically the tenants were on disability and whatnot and they would pay for the first two months and then just cancel their payments after that. So you were you were stuck with tenants that you couldn't kick out for a few months? That's right. And you were taking money from your personal RRSP and whatnot to to cover the payments. That's right. And that was three buildings that you owned. You said 20 units, right?

Kasey Wong [00:19:21] Yes, 20 units is an eight is an eight to apexes and a 12 plex. Yeah. And it was because I was 20 years before this when I hit him, I go, hey, people on assistance, there's nothing wrong with them that really isn't. You can't discriminate, but I don't discriminate. I do allow them. The only thing that I just need a cosigner from them is just because of the history that I had. And when they get a cosigner, you know what? Usually everything is good. Right? But right when they get on it. When I let them in, signed the lease and these people didn't have cosigners, this is in Hamilton, they were drapey at the beginning and back two months, like two months in nothing. They're off because they had the right to do that. So I'm out. The rent is even at that time to say six to eight hundred dollars, OK, if I could remember. So their welfare payments for somebody to works was five thirty five. I'm not sure how much it is now, but five thirty five if they're, if they're going to be five thirty five and my rent is already six hundred dollars. Right. I was like it didn't make sense right at that time. I didn't, I wasn't aware but some of these people said that they were working, they could afford it. And that's something that you had, you know, just do your proper procedures.

George El-Masri [00:20:41] Right. So. So what would you do differently then? Because at the time, obviously, it was a different time and different place. You didn't get the same kind of tenants that you're getting now in Hamilton. So. So would you have just avoided the whole project or would you still have purchased those buildings and done it differently?

Kasey Wong [00:20:57] I would have done differently, yeah. What it would have done is that I would have taken a look at who's the bad apples or get them out because they were actually one or two people that constantly had parties and. Honestly, I would like to meet all the tenants, because when people say that they have kids, some kids are pretty bad. Some of these teenagers go, we have a young 13 year old now. It wasn't 13, was like 16, 16. He was at home. He got kicked out of school. Right. And he was like his rap music was you can hear it across the street. That's how bad it was. Nothing. I listen to rap, too. So but he was blasting like. Yeah. And then what the question was, what would I do differently? I would slap them differently in a way that I would get cosigners. I would get all their information, talk to their tennis. So no one is to cosigners that working at least five years. So cosigners is working for these five years, have about forty four forty five to maybe fifty thousand dollars of income per year. Right. And. What else do credit check on them, a credit check is the history, but what I want to do is that I want to be able to go after them. If they're about sixty four and they're about to retire. You know, that's not really the case on a cosigner material rate. So just make sure that that person. Yeah, they're on welfare. But hey, do you have a cosigner. Maybe they're worker where you need to work or doesn't sign. But let's say there are the friends, so they're workers. So there's social worker or whatever teachers or their doctor can cosign for them. Right. I always ask, like, hey, can you can somebody cosign for you? So that's number one, make sure that you do your you're screaming down to a pad like, you know what you're getting into. Right. Go to go to their unit, the current unit, say, hey, OK, well, you've seen this unit. Do you mind if I just drop by at your you know, I would like to sign the papers and be up front with them because I just tell them. Do you? Because I'm actually I want to know how you live. Right. And some of them are very honest and they're open to looking at. Come on over. Right. I've seen some really nice ones. It's one of them I see. Like, it was terrible. George is crazy. I walk in and there's dog shit everywhere. I was like I looked at the pit bull like, oh, my

George El-Masri [00:23:17] friendly people, you just take the paperwork. And I was

Kasey Wong [00:23:20] like, yeah, I just I looked at a walked around. I go, you know. You know what this is, you know, I'm not going to proceed with this. Right. I don't give a reason. Right. I don't have to. I think they can smell the reason. Right. That was bad. Yeah. But the screening process is is crucial. So that's what I would do, something like that, something different that I would do. Now that the deal seems to be good, the property in itself is fine.

George El-Masri [00:23:46] You think you could have you can make it work if you can go back in time and know what you know now you could have made it work. Yeah.

Kasey Wong [00:23:52] Because the variables is this the that the building itself is just a building. Right. All of the other stuff is it changes like the human factor of the state is what you have to be careful of.

George El-Masri [00:24:06] That's the that's the thing that brings the most risk into your investment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Aside from like having a major problem with the building, like a foundation problem or something major. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's really the tenants that you have.

Kasey Wong [00:24:18] Exactly. So that's a main the risk factor liability is that is that human aspect of it. If you can control that then everything else is fine. There's a flood problem, you can always fix it just cost money. You know, there's a hole in the wall. You can fix it. It's not a problem. Right. We drywall it. But when you have the human aspect, you have to control that. You have to know what to do for that that part of the business, and

George El-Masri [00:24:40] especially in Ontario, where the rules are so in favor of tenants. Yeah, and that's that's the reason why there's so much risk associated with tenant selection. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If the policies were different, have you ever looked into looking into helping us make some changes towards the tenant policies or you don't really care too much.

Kasey Wong [00:24:59] Well, I have no power. OK, yeah. All of us individually we probably don't have. And if we collectively do something. Yeah, we probably could, but we're just talking even before this podcast with Marc. Listen, the government is actually creating a price ceiling, OK? We're not at like if anybody take has taken economics one to one. Right. They know. Have you taken business courses or.

George El-Masri [00:25:20] I did a major in economics. Excellent.

Kasey Wong [00:25:23] So you know what I'm talking about.

George El-Masri [00:25:23] I don't remember very much. I don't

Kasey Wong [00:25:25] remember. It's just it's so simple. People price and price and quantity of price and the output of the that underlying product or service. You have your supply and demand curve. Once a hit, a supply and demand curve, you have that equilibrium. And that's a best way for for the capital market to work because now your price is not too high or too low, artificially low. So once you have a price ceiling, it creates an artificial cap on that price, which essentially creates a supply shortage and a demand, a high demand. Right. So we're in the situation where you have a price ceiling. Government doesn't do anything. Government should be letting the markets laissez faire, let you know, let the market deal with it. Right. The market is a best way to get to that equilibrium. But now we have a price ceiling. Now we don't have

George El-Masri [00:26:18] getting to that. Talking about rent control.

Kasey Wong [00:26:20] Exactly. Tankage. Oh, my goodness. Sorry, I'm an idiot. So rent control, that's what I'm talking about. Rent control for a price ceiling is priced. So we just always that. Ceiling, the hits a supply and demand curve, you bring it down to the quantity output, you can have that shortfall. OK, I'm not sure if you remember your your local economics, but that's going to be the shortfall. So artificially, the government is actually creating a lineup. Right. Which is, hey, dude, this is good for us.

George El-Masri [00:26:48] Yeah. A lineup of tenants. Exactly.

Kasey Wong [00:26:50] A lineup of tenants decorating that for you. So they're creating a high demand, right? I'm like, OK, well, the only bad part is that now. Only on the turnover that you can you can command market rent,

George El-Masri [00:27:04] except if it's a newer building. Exactly.

Kasey Wong [00:27:06] I think it's the last whatever

George El-Masri [00:27:08] I don't know, two years or something like

Kasey Wong [00:27:10] that. You can every year you can increase it to the market rent. Then you may have higher turnover, but when it comes down to it, they're creating a shortfall for you. OK, take advantage of that. They're never going to be. The supply will never hit equilibrium if government is involved. OK, so we're we're in a we're in a business environment that you can reap the advantage of that because the government honestly, Concordia's stupid mistake. They are they are in a way good that they're basically current tenants have that rent control. Right. But then when you squeeze that landlords dry, they can't they can't do any repairs. I mean, it's you know, if you have let's on the flip side now, if you if you basically continue to have higher supply of of housing prices actually drop makes sense that you only have a thousand you have a thousand units. You only have 500 tenants. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Automatically prices start to drop.

George El-Masri [00:28:07] They have more to choose from. More to choose from.

Kasey Wong [00:28:09] All right. I think we should spell it out for you because people don't understand like people that vote, they don't understand that. So once you create a higher supply your prices will drop. But right now we're in low supply, high demand. So prices will inevitably just go up because of the high demand. Right. So, again, the government is trying to take care of the current situation, but in the future, they're not taking care of that of the future tenants because a lot of people are moving in.

George El-Masri [00:28:33] So that's what Mark was saying before we got on. He was saying that the stats show that the Hamilton needs twelve hundred units per year to keep up with with demand, and they're only building about 400 units per year. So there's a huge shortfall right there, right? Yes, right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So so obviously, that's an important factor. The thing is, I don't know if you're aware, but I believe in Quebec the they have rent control. But even with new like if the tenants leave, the new tenants have the right to view the previous rent and they have to stick with that. Really, that's what I've heard. I'm not 100 percent sure on that. But that's a pretty crazy policy. And I think they were thinking about applying something similar here at one point.

Kasey Wong [00:29:16] So it doesn't make sense like you have, that the government has to increase its supply once it increases supply. That's the best way to do it. Now, when you touch upon Quebec, I don't know if this is going to like I've been talking to people where sort of the bigger players and they said so, whereas I was talking to somebody in cap rates, he's he's actually the son of the founder. OK, so is one of the biggest landlords in Canada. I think they have about seventy or eighty thousand units. So we touch upon Quebec in certain areas that we are talking about that he won't invest. Right. As as the fund or the rete itself. I don't know if that will touch people the wrong way.

George El-Masri [00:29:54] I, I don't know if there is a lot of people from Quebec last year or so. Oh no, no.

Kasey Wong [00:29:58] But other other areas as well. So we're just talking about not we're not to invest or not. That the read is actually not going to want to

George El-Masri [00:30:11] you can you can touch on it again. Yeah, so

Kasey Wong [00:30:14] so the like have written a lot of big sort of the big players. They're not investing in this Alberta, Saskatchewan and Quebec, OK? It's just the economic climate there. The growth isn't there. So they're staying away from it. They divested most of those. So they're only concentrating on terrible materials. Very expensive now. So we're Ontario. The market is is is very strong. Growth is here. Companies are moving in here. We have a lot of jobs and you have that price salary increase.

George El-Masri [00:30:44] And there's a variety of jobs. Like if you look at Alberta, some of these other spots, it's kind of like just one type of one type of employment.

Kasey Wong [00:30:51] Yeah, yeah. So you see that

George El-Masri [00:30:53] down, although that might be that might be insulting to some of the people that obviously there is more. But there is one major market that's really as far as I know. Yeah.

Kasey Wong [00:31:00] Yeah, exactly. So the oil patch, the oil patch employs a lot and then you have the the subsectors helping and sort of supporting it. But in that type of economy, you may want to stay away from it. Like if you're if you're living there, that's fine. If you're probably investing in a few of them, if you bought it way back five, 10 years ago, that's great. Right. But right now, are you going to be investing in Alberta? Because the oil is really low right now and you don't see they don't see an increase. So it is tough to to look at that and think about that as a viable investment option. Saskatchewan as well, because they're tied into the resources as well. Quebec is again, this is his opinion as well. Like I do agree with it, Quebec is their tenant profile. They have to stay a lot longer. And actually the rental market is very, very big. A lot of people actually rent. They don't like to buy and. Right. But the problem here for most landlords is that they stay a lot longer. So the five or ten years, what happens out when even if you buy, you're not able to pull that money out because now you're in a Y is really low for those five or ten years. And you have this nice turnover in Ontario and it creates a great investment opportunity for people in Ontario. So I'm not telling you not to invest there, but I'm saying you have to be you have to be aware that those areas if the big boys aren't investing there, you know why. So, look, you don't follow the follow the elephant, right? Yeah, exactly.

George El-Masri [00:32:31] So, yeah, cool. I want to obviously you have two hundred fifty around two hundred fifty units. So you know a lot about the what to do when you buy these buildings because you're often buying them. They're assuming in rough shape or they have bad tenants and you've got to turn them over. What are some of the first things you do when you when you purchase property? For example, when I've spoken to people in the past, they would say, like in a rough neighborhood, they might put these lights on the exterior just to illuminate the whole lot, to make sure no drug deals are happening, that people can see what's going on. Do you have any tips on certain things that you do about sort?

Kasey Wong [00:33:06] Yeah, that's that's good. There's a few things that I normally do is that when I walk my building, when I'm doing the inspection with the engineer and usually with the engineer, I'm talking to people and I need to know if I can get a super there. Right. Somebody that can clean and one

George El-Masri [00:33:24] of the people that are currently living there. That's right.

Kasey Wong [00:33:26] Yeah. So that's my main goal, is to find somebody there because they're my eyes and ears for for problems, for tenant issues. So once you have that, it makes your life a lot easier then exactly what you do. If I had the Hamilton building, same thing. You have to be able to secure the building. The front has to be on secured blocks. Yeah. So whatever locks you have, there's a lot of the these types of keys and these locks that you just can't duplicate the keys at your local hardware store, that you're getting tired, a home, right home or whatever. So you get these high security locks, cameras throughout. OK, so you put cameras, the entry, the entry points and the lights change the lights. Make sure it's nice and bright. Yeah, OK, that's crucial. And then make sure that you support your your super. So if something goes wrong they call you and you call the police. Right. So there will be some bad bad apples here in any building that you buy. There will be somebody that would everybody there's a lot of people to be force tenants hate me, whatever. It's like I not I didn't do this for them. I'm doing that to them. And this is always gonna be somebody

George El-Masri [00:34:40] you're always going to be the person that they're going to blame for. Sure. Yeah. If they're not paying rent and you're evicting them, you're the problem.

Kasey Wong [00:34:45] Exactly. Exactly. They're not paying on the property. Exactly. So but yeah, that's, that's ah that's the get go. Yeah. OK, find a good person, get your people in place so you have your contractors and plumbers and electrician, have a good contractor get one or two is good you plumbers as well. And obviously your, your plumbers you need somebody at night. Because I think I told this before to other people is that your plumbers are the people that will be there when your tenants are home because you don't have a plumbing probably during Monday to Friday, nine to five, when you're when you're available to work, that there's no problems because they're all at work. Right. Right. So your plumbers have to be available at night. So week nights and weekends. OK, that's a crucial time because you're going to tell you when it's leaking was when it's clogged or anything like that. And then you're like electricians as well. So electricians is more during the day, like your plumbers are crucial and just know where the shutoffs are. Yeah, right. So if there's any kind of floods or or anything like that, but at the get go, you have to find. So your question was what do you do if that's what you have to do? All of that almost all at the same time?

George El-Masri [00:35:49] Yeah, pretty much address the security issues. Just start for the most part. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What about if you're acquiring a building that has all inclusive rents, what kind of steps do you do? Like are you going to try first to maybe make it more efficient, maybe change showerheads, faucets, things like that, and then try to to put meters in and separate all the utilities and all that?

Kasey Wong [00:36:11] What I normally do for like for the water? Yes, it's going to be showerheads area aerators for all the faucets.

George El-Masri [00:36:18] So just in aerator, you won't change the faucet.

Kasey Wong [00:36:20] You're not usually when it comes due, when it's leaking or whatever, then it would change it to have lever and I'll put the better stuff in. I'll put them on, I'll put the Americans out or something. Good. Don't buy the cheap stuff. You're buying what is cheap stuff like thirty bucks or forty bucks to spend an extra 30, but it's not that much. OK, so buy for those things that is used on a regular basis. OK, so sort of I think my, my take is that if I'm using it for like every day I put the money there. Right. Like I'll put the money in my boots. It doesn't look good, but it's five hundred dollars for a pair of boots. But I will buy a nice suit because I don't wear it every day. I'll buy nice like it's decent, whatever decent Ashmore's or whatever, then I'll buy it. But things that I use, like I'm going to use a dishwasher every day, I'm going to buy a good dishwasher. The light stand in the office or that never gets turned on. I'm not going to buy designer nightstand. Right. That's my take on digressing.

George El-Masri [00:37:18] So Faucet's showerheads.

Kasey Wong [00:37:20] Yes. And now like electrical stuff, the hydro. You want to be able to offload that to tenants in Ontario? Usually people would. There's three types of utilities. We call it hydroelectricity from the hydro dams. Then you have gas and then you have water. So usually landlords, property managers would outsource or offload to the tenants hydro. So I use wise WASC, I think resetting anyways. You can offload everything. You can actually even offload the the water meter there. But you have to

George El-Masri [00:37:53] it's expensive right. Them because they got to open up and then. No, no, no. I remember someone looking into it. They said it was going to cost quite a bit to to put Seper meters in every unit for water.

Kasey Wong [00:38:03] Yeah. But then they actually charge the tenants back. Right. But then it makes it more expensive for them. Now you have a mind cause I think it's twenty or thirty dollars a month for I don't really look into it, look at the cost structure. And it seemed it didn't seem feasible because if I'm charging it all back to the tenants and they said total cost now. So they have to pay rent plus three utilities plus cell phone or whatever, and four or five utilities are. Yeah, that's expensive parking and all. Now they're going to look at OK, well I'm paying a thousand dollars plus all these plus plus plus. And then I can rent all inclusive except for hydro and I'm paying twelve fifty. They pay the twelve fifty. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because if they pay separately probably paying thirteen or fourteen hundred. So you know what. Compare apples with apples and B B B the same page as a competition. Yeah. OK, so I normally offload through wise just the hydro.

George El-Masri [00:38:55] So, so ok. Can you just explain what wises and what.

Kasey Wong [00:38:58] So they would put a separate meter.

George El-Masri [00:39:00] It's a company that comes in and does it work.

Kasey Wong [00:39:02] Yeah it does all the work and then they have so let's say my thirty two unit building was, it was all included and now they would separate it individually whenever there's a turnover. So whenever there's a turnover change you just can't change at least. So I'm not, I'm not forcing it upon the current tenant. You can't do that like play within the rules, right. I play within the rules. The playground is this. The government tells you how to play. And you played that. That. Yeah, it's as simple as that. I'm not changing anything. I'm not I'm not I'm not the bad landlord said, you know what? Here's I'll get you the tribunal. No, I'm not doing that. Here it is. Here's a here's what I can do. The new tenants are coming in. You you you know that it's rent plus hydro, water and heat, essentially gases. Heat is absorbed by the by the owner. Right. So that's that's what I normally do.

George El-Masri [00:39:51] OK, all right. So just to recap, the first thing you'll do is try to make the all inclusive rents more efficient for use. So that would mean changing faucets and showerheads and things like that. Is there anything else you would do in addition to that? Like, I know some people put a brick in the toilet. So that uses less water. Yeah.

Kasey Wong [00:40:12] Yeah, I heard about a brick, maybe even a water bottle or something like you can definitely do something,

George El-Masri [00:40:17] I'm not saying that you should do that, but are there any other tips that you would do to reduce the amount of utilities you're paying for on the building without turning it over?

Kasey Wong [00:40:27] No, that's that's all that's all that I do.

George El-Masri [00:40:29] OK, so you go in there, you definitely have someone go and always change showerheads and faucets or the aerator at least.

Kasey Wong [00:40:35] Yeah, we checked that on regular basis on which the toilets that run because of flappers at the bottom would tend to sort of they call it warping. So that little flap it at the bottom, it goes up, opens up the valve to flush the water from the tank to the to the bowl. So that works and you'll hear the water run. So you go close to you say it goes. Yeah, then yeah.

George El-Masri [00:40:55] And it's always running. It's always some stuff like that.

Kasey Wong [00:40:58] Yeah. And then we take a look at your your water bill. Just take a look at that if it spikes up. So it has a variance of from one month to the next, let's say a 10 or maybe 20 percent increase. And you said, OK, well flag that we go take a look and you do a regular beat on a regular basis. You're doing the smoke alarms before and after winter. When you do that, you checking for the water as well. As you go to the sink, you turn it on, make sure it doesn't leak your traps. You put traps, making sure that they're dry and flush the toilet that just flush the toilet and just wait for it. Right. Sometimes right after you flush, there's a catch, right. Sometimes a chain catches the whatever. So you're listening for that. So that's a regular property management ministry

George El-Masri [00:41:40] and you train your guys to go or you train them. This is what you look for. This is what I want you to do, right?

Kasey Wong [00:41:45] That's right. So I trained them, but I'd like to go and do it myself. I just want to see how people live sometimes. You see, I don't know, I grow up some old issues. So that's that's when you're taking a look at your your investment. Right. Like, I have investors and they want to see that. They want to make sure that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. Right. Yeah, because we have to answer to to my investors. Right. So I do work for people and they put their money into this building. So I have to make sure that it's running properly. Right. Yeah. Just respect their their investment.

George El-Masri [00:42:23] Yeah, definitely. And then as you were saying earlier, as the units turn over, you separate the hydro meters. Yes. And now you just add that to the rent. So you're typically doing rent plus hydro. Yes. Right. So you're not separating everything. You're just just doing that. That's right. Yeah. So water you're still typically paying out of of your pocket. Yeah. So that works out. And then we're kind of talking about securing the building. And at that point how long would it typically take you to turn, turn a property over. Are you doing like cash for keys to speed that process up or it doesn't matter how long it takes.

Kasey Wong [00:42:57] Yeah it doesn't. I don't really force people out. Yeah. People will just leave automatically, but I'm not here to kick them out of there.

George El-Masri [00:43:04] What if there's a troublesome like that person playing music. Yeah. How would you approach that.

Kasey Wong [00:43:08] Yeah. So if it is troublesome like to say hey I'm going to do it then five and essentially that's a tribunal, people saying that, you know, you're disturbing people or whatever you're doing, do you want to leave. And I've done that once in a glass so I've done this since twenty three so seventeen years. I've done it once and I gave two months right back because they need first and last. Right. You know what is not working out. I told her it's it's either I take you to the tribunal and then you don't get any money. I'm going to kick you out for sure. Or I can give you two months rent leave now. So I've done that once. And she knew that like she knew that she couldn't pay. We already had the we're going to the tribunal. I said it's probably going to be because I'll go to mediation and do all that. And I'm so you know, I'll I'll give you a break. I'll give you a chance. I'll give you like a couple of days. But I'll do you take it now. You take two months now or go to the tribunal. It's not head it goes. You know, I'll take it. All right.

George El-Masri [00:44:00] Yeah, that's fair. And then she's out of there and you don't have to deal with that problem anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Are you finding that it's it's getting challenging to find good apartment buildings? Oh yeah. Yeah. Is it more challenging now than it was a few years ago?

Kasey Wong [00:44:12] Yeah. I think it when when we started doing these YouTube and these podcasts, I think it's sort of blown up. Like when we're looking at deals now, it's it's hard. I'm not sure how what like are you looking for the multifamily, the the 30 to 50 unit buildings like Denisov. Prices are when I looked at it, I'm like, oh my goodness, these people are crazy. The buying is so high. Some some of these prices have gone up to like one. I heard one hundred fifty thousand per unit indicate a kitchen in Cambridge.

George El-Masri [00:44:38] You are there are a lot of players in that price range, like I haven't really looked at anything that was 30 to 50 units.

Kasey Wong [00:44:44] So it's there's so you question was there a lot of people,

George El-Masri [00:44:47] a lot of players that are going after these types of buildings?

Kasey Wong [00:44:49] I think there are now. Yeah, I think there are, because I've seen it was a twenty unit building in Cambridge and it's over one hundred fifty thousand per unit. And this is only about a year or two years ago. I was just shaking my head this crazy and then it was a terrible person, like we looked it up. I think my my my agent goes, look it up. I think somebody from Toronto, the money people in Toronto. I'm from China. Yeah, it's I think it's more of a you play, people want something. They know that it's going to go up Cambridge Kitchen while you Hamiltons your sink. Catherines, it's all it is. It's a very, very stable market and people are buying in future prices. I think he bought it about two years out to maybe three.

George El-Masri [00:45:34] That was going to be one of my questions for you. Is that something you would consider doing at this point? So I know like what the price is being so high and often these rents are low because they've been run by the same person for 30 years and they don't really care about jacking them up. Are you buying them and hoping that you'll be able to turn them over quickly so that you can make up for that lack of cash flow?

Kasey Wong [00:45:55] We are buying it, but not to those prices, even my St. Catherine's building. So we're buying it at one hundred thirty thousand per unit, five point three mil for forty forty unit, I think is one hundred thirty thousand. But there's a back piece of land that I can build so I can essentially cut that. So sell that piece of land from the rental rental LP to my development LP and then my cost per unit dropped from the five point three. I say sell it for about eight hundred five hundred thousand eight hundred or whatever. It dropped my five point to five point three to four point three, for example, not a four point three million for four units that that piece of land helped my development now. Right. So so your question is that

George El-Masri [00:46:36] are you are you willing to purchase a property? That's right, yeah. Even though it might be negative or really low on cash flow,

Kasey Wong [00:46:44] we do do that because it's a value that we know that at the very get go the first couple of years, it's going to be zero. Probably it's going to be net net zero. I'm not going to be making any money until there's a turnover. OK, so imagine this. You're buying a business that doesn't make money for two years. Yeah, right. People want to slap you. Right. I'm going to buy McDonald's. I'm not going to make you know, I'm going to volunteer my time for two years. Right. But there is there is a portion of probably Magma's or whatever I have to eat. Yeah. Right. I have to pay my I do take for a commercial, I take three to five percent. So I have to put bread on the table. I have to be able to put gas in my car, so on, so forth. I have to do that. But when it comes out to my investors, no, we're not making money for the first couple of years. Right. And they know that.

George El-Masri [00:47:24] What if it was negative? Would you still

Kasey Wong [00:47:26] go into it? That's tough. Yeah, it's tough because it doesn't make sense. Yeah, right. I'm going to have to feed this dude like I like I like investment properties. I like that. But now to go and get another investment property to support it, it doesn't make sense unless you have very deep pockets where you could put a huge down payment of thirty five forty one percent down because you're not going be able to get that funding from the bank. So I'm not going to be able to go to the bank. You charter banks or even the second year lending and like a timber creek or whatever, they're not going to give you that money. You say that whatever it is, it's too risky. Right. And it doesn't it doesn't make sense for them. So when you're doing your your financing, they'll tell you that, you know, you probably need thirty five down. Right. Or thirty down and then you have to be able to stabilize it. You have to get that turnover.

George El-Masri [00:48:09] How much are you typically putting down now with the lenders that you're working with?

Kasey Wong [00:48:13] All of our previous deals are twenty five down now I think in this sixth and I think we put thirty down, I'm not sure that's my way. That's a question, but I think it's 30 percent. It's, it's not, it's not thirty five. I think it's three or twenty five.

George El-Masri [00:48:26] Yeah that makes sense. Yeah. OK, before we get into the next section, I have one more thing for you. You were talking about with Mark about how you don't need to go with external property management until you get to about four or five hundred dollars. So can you expand on that a little bit?

Kasey Wong [00:48:41] I actually ask the same thing, Colton, isn't he? Gathering's. Right. And he was asking me, I love helping people. I just don't have the time to help everybody. Yeah. So this really helps this podcast, you know, YouTube and things like that. So you don't need an exterior property manager. This is how I break it down. So you property manager is not going to collect rent. They don't touch a top line. OK, you're going to be either paying a few ways. It's pre authorized debit. You have to pay for that through the bank. So prioritize debit. You pulled the rent directly from their account each and every month. It's just like your your gym, your gym memberships. I did they go into your pocket and your wallet and they pull up thirty bucks in this case. Whatever, a thousand bucks. If they can stop it, I can stop at any time they wish and I can stop it when they move out. OK, so that's obviously if you can, if you continue to take it out and they moved out, that's fraud you'll be charged for. That's criminal. They're not going to be doing that. So that's one way of collecting. It could be transfer, but just try collecting to 150 transfers and passwords and everything else. Drive you crazy. Right? So you usually get them at the first and last, like and your first month's rent in your last months or your Alamar. And then after which you can either pay by Beatriz's debit or checks, you can drop off a check. We usually have a drop off in all the buildings. So it's a management office. Just drop it off and we'll go to school and collect it or mail it to us or it's posted it checks. Right. Those are the. For me, it's the most viable, easiest, simplest way for tenants to to pay the rent. OK, so. Why so that's a top line. Showings, I usually get the person to show my superintendence because they can show I paid them ten dollars for showing they can group it together and have five showings. It's fifty dollars to put together. Right. Any kind of Maynards issue it just go today to the super the super contacts, me or my or my contractors. If I don't want to deal with I go to the contractors now it's so easy to have a phone right tenent. Go take a picture of it, go take a video of it, send it to me directly. I say OK, well your toilet is running. Oh my goodness. There's a shower in your living room. Oh my goodness. So send a plumber.

George El-Masri [00:50:55] So, so you'll actually have them text you or you directly. Exactly.

Kasey Wong [00:51:00] Like I want it for me. It doesn't happen often, but I want them to tell me that I have a flood. The roof caved in. I want to go to property manager and then to me. Yeah, I'll just come directly to me. It goes from the super or the cleaner directly to me.

George El-Masri [00:51:13] I have an assistant or something that helps.

Kasey Wong [00:51:15] You know, we have a system for my for my paperwork and all that because I'm terrible at paperwork. But it still doesn't go to her like I still like maybe I'm too hands on. My wife says you have to be hands off. And I don't mind doing that because I want to know what the heck is going on. You would you rather me if that's with me and I don't know what the heck is going on. Like I'm guessing you, George. But George, how's it going? I don't know. Right. Like what? You don't know how my investment is doing. Right. So that's I selecta. I still want to go to me if it goes directly to whatever my contractors ask me on it. Right. Whatever you send it to me, I want to know what's going on. Right. If it's a small matter, like my kitchen knob fell off, OK, do I don't need to know all that. Yeah, but when they're there, like the superintendent will get all the small items in every week, the contractor will just go and get it all done. Right. So that's for main. It's maintenance and repairs. It goes to those are in people collecting the rent. It goes to certain people. And now she it goes to certain people, contractors, landscapers and superintendents. We have cameras throughout. OK, so you put the cameras in, right? This is your property managers. You don't have to drive by. What do you have to drive by? What I'm driving by anyways, because I stopped to collect the rent, collected coins, OK, and do all that again. What what is my property manager doing? Renovations. OK, well, contractor, go and take a look at it. What needs to be done. I always do the same thing. Yeah. I mean do it for gold. Just change the kitchens in the bathrooms. Right. But it always gets new floors and it gets painted. Right. OK, so what was the duties of that property manager that I'm going to outsource that I cannot do for myself. Yeah, right. So I've pretty much done everything. If my roof is leaking, I'm going to go up there and take a look at it. Right. I'm going to say, OK, well, look. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. It is leaking into the top units. Wow. There is a waterfall, right? Somebody took a picture of it. Yeah. That's that's water. How hard is that. Right. I am a property manager and I probably wouldn't even hire myself if the owner. Right. But the thing is that if you have all these people in place and you've done that at the beginning, that person is is I hate to say that person is redundant right now until you hit that four or five hundred units, until you're saying, you know what, I don't want to drive around each and every building. Right. But if you have four or five hundred units, you can you're going to scale up now by one hundred units of two hundred units by four buildings. Have somebody sit there in the office. Right. And look pretty like I don't mind. That's what you do. The look pretty, right. Yeah. But it comes to the point where if you're able to scale, if you have those single family homes, duplexes, triplex, you're going to sell those at a certain time. You can't refinance everything. So people say, I'm going to refinance and pull the money out. Yeah, you can refinance, but come to a point where you're not able to because you're financing costs on a monthly basis is going to be you're not going to be making anything or you can refinance and not refinance enough because I've done that even for my ten plex. Right. So I saw my ten plex to get my sixty five unit. But mind you what the question was, George asked, why do I need a property manager if you can, if you can outsource all that. Because I basically outsourced everything right. I'm just overseeing it. I'm just a quarterback, I'm quarterbacking everything. So I'm doing all that. On my cell phone or whatever, saying, yeah, there's a flood, send the plumber, electrical is shot. It's an electrician showing the five showings. Right. There's no use for that property manager yet yet. Right. OK, until you have that, I say four or five hundred and seven hundred, I think I can do it up to seven. Seven hundred. I just have my strader sometimes I want the day off or whatever because maybe we're, we're scaling by something. We're just doing different deals now that I do need somebody to help me out just to definitely do the paperwork. And then she likes to, she likes to be hands on as well. She wants to do the inspection so that you know what? Great. Because I don't have to do the inspection, but if I have the time, I'll do it. Right. Right. Yeah, but yeah. Just No, no. What you're getting into and see if you can outsource it to somebody who's a little bit more efficient.

George El-Masri [00:55:20] OK, yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. Everyone, everybody's got different skills and whatnot. So your skills work well for, for that type of thing. Yeah. And there might be some people out there that just don't want to do with any of it and they just want to outsource it. So but it's interesting the way you do it and how how you're able to to take care of two hundred and fifty doors just yourself by outsourcing. Yeah. It's impressive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. OK, let's jump into the final section, which is the random five. So I'm going to ask you five random questions as the title states and you just answer the first thing that comes to mind. OK, so what food you crave more than any other?

Kasey Wong [00:55:59] Variety, I'm not in for one specific food, I get everything I iue from the Indian food from your curry like spicy curries to your sushis to your pasta, Chinese food. I eat everything. You're Lebanese. I want to eat like the kabob. I think you probably have good kabobs or something. Like I'll eat everything. Anything.

George El-Masri [00:56:23] So there's nothing in particular that you're craving? No, no, no. All right. Fair enough. Have you ever had to scream help? And if so, why

Kasey Wong [00:56:32] scream help, help. There's no more toilet paper. OK.

George El-Masri [00:56:37] All right. That's. Fair enough. What makes you lose track of time

Kasey Wong [00:56:43] on the phone? Yeah, I think everybody is on social media and I should be posting. I should be, you know, the more social media and posting stuff, I think for everybody it's sucks your time out like, oh my goodness, I'm on the phone for half an hour. I should have been there already, right? Yeah.

George El-Masri [00:57:01] You mean like I'm just scrolling through photos.

Kasey Wong [00:57:03] Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, oh I like I like to like, you know, what is it. Not kind of snoop around. And I'm like, yeah, just watching people like, you know, that's kind of kind of cool. Right. But then it's just

George El-Masri [00:57:13] a waste of time. I just get absorbed in it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. All right, cool. The next one is if peanut butter wasn't called peanut butter, what would it be called?

Kasey Wong [00:57:24] It was called, um. That's a different question is slightly better, I have no idea, like my kids have decided at their school smells like peanut butter and all that, like this is amazing.

George El-Masri [00:57:40] Peanut free peanut butter.

Kasey Wong [00:57:41] Yeah, but enough free peanut butter. It's soy.

George El-Masri [00:57:44] Yeah. There you

Kasey Wong [00:57:45] go. Label it basically. OK, well, if you like it, eat it in soy butter.

George El-Masri [00:57:49] I like that. OK. And the last one is what success. Principal do you live by success principal.

Kasey Wong [00:57:55] You've got to do it like you can't learn. I think I said this before, you can learn a bike by reading books on it. Right. I'm going to have a fun bike riding. But you've never touched a bike. You can't learn. Steering, pedaling, gliding, balancing on what? Like from books. So the success principle is that you actually have to do it right. You have to get on the bike and you may have to you may have to fall or you will fall. So get back on that bike and get on the bike first and then try it.

George El-Masri [00:58:25] Yeah. It's amazing that you you lost four hundred thousand in Hamilton. Yeah. And you were able to recover from that. That didn't scare you away. And you and your wife were together and you worked through that difficult time and you were able to grow and get past it so that congratulations on that and hopefully you'll continue to grow it. Yeah. And yeah, I appreciate you coming by and you sharing all that information with us.

Kasey Wong [00:58:47] Yeah. Here's an analogy I was sent to one of my friends is that just somebody lost four or five hundred thousand for it. Like, either you learn that experience or you take a four or five hundred thousand. Right. And put in a nice little pile and put a flame to it. Yeah. You'd rather learn it, right. Because the other way there's no learning. Right. You just burn like this about two Ferraris and just like crashed it. You're not learning from anything. But at least I learned something from Hamilton.

George El-Masri [00:59:13] Yeah. Never made those mistakes again. Yeah. Those same mistakes.

Kasey Wong [00:59:16] Yeah. You'll never you never make those mistakes again. But you have to learn it just because you hear me talking or it's nice but go and do it right. Like I want people to succeed. There's not nothing in it for me. Right. I just want you to succeed. How hard is that. Right. Just go, go grab it. There's opportunities everywhere. Yeah. Right. Like you're sitting here, you're, you're doing what you do, but the opportunities are there. You're doing what you're doing wrong. Just imagine that it's like I did it. I tried it right. Alwi. I always tell people to do it when they're young. They do my math. Twenty nine. Twenty nine. You're so young. Yeah. I started. I was twenty eight. Right. I'm forty four now. Just imagine when you have forty four you're going to look back. This is say you know what I've done and I have these properties or I've learned some mistakes, I've lost a little bit of money. But your mistakes are actually your mistakes, right. Your mistakes and my mistakes. You probably know from my mistakes, but you hit you hit different types of mistakes. You learn from it. Right. So it's good. It's good to it's good to have that little bit of stress level. OK, it builds you. Right. I said yes to to that one one time ago. We can't take anything with us. Right. We get to when we die, we get to leave all this behind us. Right. There's not. So why why hold it on so, so dearly. Like oh it's fifty thousand dollars in my pocket. I'm going to buy a car with I'm going to spend it like how to spend, invest it invested wisely. What are you going to spend it somehow. Right. You can't take, you can't take it with you. You're right. So, so take that, take that opportunity if it's whatever is a fifty thousand one hundred thousand or whatever, but learn how to do it. All right. You're going to take that money, you put on a down payment or whatever or invest, invest wisely. And that's your that's your ticket. That's your learning. That's your tuition.

George El-Masri [01:01:10] OK, yeah. One hundred percent. I agree. And those lessons are worth every dollar usually if you use them. Well, yeah. Yeah. If you don't learn anything from it then obviously some people end up like did they just give up. But yeah, that's why it's important to do what you did. So before we end things, is there any sort of service that you're offering or anything you want to share with people and how they can maybe contact you if you're interested in that?

Kasey Wong [01:01:34] Yeah, yeah. We actually just started three different types of pillars. So we have we're going to be starting a reach. We can start lending money out and then there's also going to be affordable housing. So those three types of business strategies or pillars would if people want to get involved, just email us at invest at Taculli dot com. Actually, my business partner, Mark, he's going to head that up. So it's investee and that at Cassiel Elai Dotcom. But that's something for people to read. It's really for people that are not accredited investors, because I've been people I've asked like how do I invest in all that? And they don't meet that threshold. It's hard to be an investor. And usually they're my my age, right. Like I'm older. Right. Like in your 40s and 50s. That's my target. Target the credit investors, age bracket, age range. I'd like people to meet that. So that really helps them out. They can get involved in investing, then they can actually go through the affordable housing. We're going to be doing a couple of affordable housing that perhaps one is in cathodes and one and one somewhere else. We're not having locked down that property at. And so they can get involved in as an investor, you know, return will be a little bit higher because it's affordable housing, the initiative for the government is is to push for affordable housing because we in Ontario, there's not enough housing and then lending. So we have people that just want a straight percentage. Right. So they can lend money and then we can lend money out to them and so on, so forth. So we have to eat a little spread. That's good in a way, because we're going to have even for us. I was looking at investing with other other investors as well because we always had some cash there, right? A couple hundred thousand. When you're in between deals, you sometimes hold cash. Right. And then when you have the deal, you're deploying that money. Right. So sometimes there's that sort of break and the money just sitting there. So what are we going to do with that? We're probably going to lend it out. So there's that three little tranches or three of the three little pillars of businesses that we can do.

George El-Masri [01:03:47] Very cool. Yeah, that's awesome. Sounds like you're doing a lot of really good things. So all the best in your new ventures. And I look forward to staying in touch and seeing you again soon. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed the content. And as a valued listener, I'm giving away a sample letter of intent. This letter is used once your potential CO venture expresses interest in working with you. It outlines the general structure of the deal and intentions of both parties. You could visit w w w well off the forward slash letter to receive your free copy w w w well off dossie forward slash letter.

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