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Podcast Transcription

Announcer [00:02:23] If you are looking for the skills and tools to succeed in real estate investing, you’ve come to the right place. This show is about breaking through barriers, breaking through limiting beliefs and breaking through to the life that you want to live through the power of real estate investing. This is the Breakthrough Real Estate Investing podcast, and now here are your hosts Rob Break and Sandy MacKay.

Rob Break [00:02:55] Oh, my goodness, we are back. Welcome everybody, and thanks for joining us today. We have a great show again for you guys. Lots of fantastic, indispensable, valuable information for all of you who are out there just trying to struggle through this real estate investing quest that we’re on. And speaking of struggle. Joining me again today is Sandy MacKay. You had a bit of a struggle recently.

Sandy Mackay [00:03:23] COVID struggle. I don’t. I know, I know it’s too much time about it. But yeah, COVID struggle, I guess. Like all, like all of us, a real COVID struggle, meaning I had it. But we’re past it, so I’m feeling good and ready to go with special Friday edition

Rob Break [00:03:35] of the Yeah Friday edition. Most people are used to us doing this on Wednesdays, but we shuffle some things around to get our guests on here when they were available. So hopefully we still have a few people checking in and asking questions. You can go if you’re listening to us right now, you can go in the chat, jump on and you’ll be able to ask away and hopefully get some answers from these guys. Wayne and Gabby Healy are here with us. Hey guys, how are you?

Sandy Mackay [00:04:01] Hey, how’s it going?

Wayne Hillier [00:04:02] Good. How are you guys?

Rob Break [00:04:03] I’m excited to talk to you guys. Before we get into it, though, I just want to remind everybody who’s listening to you. Go over to Breakthrough Aria podcast Nazia. You can listen to all of our episodes. We’re on 01:43 today, so there’s quite a few to listen to if you are just new to the show and you can also pick up our free gift.

Sandy Mackay [00:04:25] Yeah, the ultimate strategy for really, well, thrill states. You can pick that up at Breakthrough Aria Podcasts. Yeah, and when you do that too, you will get on our on our email list, so you never miss a show. You’ll hear about everything we got going on in our worlds with business stuff, property tours, seminars, etc. So make sure you get on that. So you so you never miss out and you get all of our content.

Rob Break [00:04:49] Absolutely. And if you haven’t done so already, please go over and leave us a rating review on iTunes. It helps out a lot, and I believe we have fixed all the problems from the other platforms where people were saying that they were having difficulty getting the newer episodes. I think everything is up to date and fixed now, but if you guys are still finding a problem, please let me know. I do appreciate you letting us know. But anyway,

Sandy Mackay [00:05:13] they can find us on Facebook and YouTube as well live during our shows. So that’s another way they can definitely make sure they never miss out is go find us there.

Rob Break [00:05:21] Yeah, there’s no lack of ways to find us. So get out there, look up, break through our podcast and join in. What’s new Sandy what do you got? Other than other than being laid out for a couple of days there, what’s new here?

Sandy Mackay [00:05:37] What is new? Just finalized a refinance on a 12-year building. That was awesome. So we got we got all of our money back out in like less than I think it was, but we were 14 months. So it’s pretty big success. That was probably our biggest win in the last couple of weeks for our investment stuff because typically with that side of the building might be more like a two-year timeline and not necessarily all of your money back out of it. So we just finalized and officially got three up, but we’re just we finalized all the mortgage stuff on that. So in the next couple of weeks, we’ll put some funds out of that, which is exciting. Owning a building like that with basically no money and after a year of having some money tied up, but just another version of, you know, seeing the power of that strategy that we like to use the strategy and it can be done on any type of building. But that would happen to be a 12 unit one. That was yeah, it was. It was really rough. So it’s fun to go through. And now we’ll be really nice to just sit back and just let it ride.

Rob Break [00:06:44] So combination of, I guess, the market, the way that the market’s gone recently and a bunch of work that you guys have put into it, what do you think was the most important thing that you guys did in order to get that done like that successfully?

Sandy Mackay [00:07:01] Well, it was a crazy time to do it because we were delayed on some permits because it’s COVID and the property. The city was all delayed on giving things like that out. So we had a lot of like the little delays here and there through the process. So I was I was just surprised in the timeline. You know, working with the tenants is probably the biggest thing there that that was, I would say, like. I guess a piece of it that we were able to navigate pretty well, I think, you know, working with tenants to have them. Nobody, no tenants to want to leave where they’ve been for a long time. And in this case, a lot of those buildings where you’re dealing with bigger. It’s not that Big 12 units, but properties that are not like a purpose-built building, an apartment building, let’s say eight units more, at least in Hamilton. There’s a lot of tenants that have lived there for many, many, many years, decades sometimes, right? So having those conversations with them to find a solution because they need to leave for us to do the renovations and optimize the building. Navigating that is sometimes not that fun, but we able to source finance, find solutions to it, and it’s quicker than I would say most people are able to, which ends up being a big for the timeline for us ends up being a big win because we’re able to find a path for them to move on and be OK with it. And also financially, we’re not holding the property for too long. And it’s kind of a limited state of that it was in. So that’s the I would say that’s the biggest challenge for a lot of people in those two is just navigating that. And fortunately, we were able to figure out some solutions that worked and make it happen faster than most probably would.

Rob Break [00:08:47] Yeah, that’s fantastic. Congratulations. That is a big win. Absolutely. Well, what do you say? We jump into the interview now.

Sandy Mackay [00:08:54] Let’s do it. Let’s do it. I’m excited for it. Well, let’s bring in. Yeah, Wayne and Gaby Hillier. Happy to have you guys here, and we can talk a lot about a few things, right? Seller financing agreement for sales, helping homeowners out of situations or creating win wins. Developing a vision, creating a real estate investment roadmap and building a real estate business with your spouse, which is super exciting because that’s something I’ve been doing to over the last almost a decade and love hearing different perspectives on that. Actually, I guess Rob, as all of us have so interesting to hear that I love the idea for that, so I’m excited. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much, guys. Thanks for having us.

Rob Break [00:09:29] Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for joining us today. So we’ll start off the way we always do. Let’s find out how you guys got into real estate investing in the first place.

Sandy Mackay [00:09:39] It was me. It wasn’t her. I mean, it was me. I was working. I used to do like welding inspections and nondestructive testing, and I was working on a night shift and a bunch of guys were talking about investing at like two o’clock in the morning. And I just kind of stumbled in there and I was just kind of getting involved in the conversation. I had never done any investing before, but the one guy so they all talked about, you know, Well, I’m into this, I’m into that, I’m in the Suncor, some oil, that kind of stuff. And then one guy is like, oh, I own rental properties, and everybody just gravitated towards them. And I guess he owned like 15 property or something like that, and everybody thought he was the coolest person in the world. So I ended up I spent a bit of time with him over the next couple of weeks on that night shift on that, on that shut down and just kept picking his brain. And then he recommended a book and then it all just kind of went from there. I don’t know. He was just that one person that like kind of gave me that belief that it could be possible. You know what I mean? The only have that kind of breakthrough moment where, you know, never would have thought that I would have been a real estate investor about more than one property at that time. But yeah, he kind of, you know, gave me a little bit of confidence and gave me real estate investing in Canada. But Don Campbell, I went and started with that and then it was just from there. It was about probably 18 months trying to convince my wife that we should do this. But yeah, then we got into one. It was just no turning back after that. Once you kind of have that belief or once you have that, you make that decision that you’re going to get into real estate investing. It’s very it’s very rare. You see people kind of turn around and change their mind, right? They’re just so dedicated to it. It’s a great point on. Funny how one person can trigger that thing in your life or one little, you know, that’s I guess, you know, your environment that you’re in and the people around are a major impact in your life when one person you can see that, that maybe feels similar to you and you go, oh crap, that person’s doing that? Well, I guess I can do that pretty impactful. Where are you located? Say it does. Where? Where you live, where you, where you run your business? We’re in Edmonton, Alberta. We mostly invest in Edmonton and then just outside of Edmonton, in Ladakh. Yeah, that’s where we invest.

Rob Break [00:11:51] OK, so you got that book. Did you both read it or was it just you? And then you’re like, saying, OK, here’s what I learned, and here’s what we can do.

Wayne Hillier [00:12:00] And now luckily, he sent me to talk to my job with that book and told me that I better finish it. So I spent my breaks and my lunches reading through that book. And yeah, but then he also it didn’t stop there. He also like when I would get home, he had this big whiteboard in the office. So I guess at that time was more your guitar room. Yeah. And. He would ride out scenarios of like if we bought this house and then refinanced it and took the money out and make like this whole grid of like 20 years’ worth of buying rental properties. And yeah, kind of helped visualize what the possibilities could be because he knew that I was just scared crap less. You got that mindset of not wanting to be a landlord and all the horror stories that could happen and all those types of things. So I took some convincing.

Sandy Mackay [00:12:49] And to this day, I mean, it wasn’t until actually recently that that you really even just like, really got on board because, you know, for the longest time, you know, it almost felt like, I don’t know if I should say this like on a podcast, but you kind of almost felt like my employee. I was just I was. Here’s the plan, honey, I need you to go, do this. This, this, this and this. And it worked. But it wasn’t the best way that we wanted to do it right.

Rob Break [00:13:12] Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Well, I mean, it’s better than not starting at all because you both got to be on the same page, right? That’s what I’ve found here is, you know, sometimes when I get, I might get ahead of myself a little bit and my wife will say, OK, dial it back. You know, let’s finish two projects before you start the next one kind of thing, right? And you know, and it’s just a personal preference, right? Like some somebody else might say, Let’s keep going. You’re being lazy. What do you do it? But as long as you’re on the same page, then you know things are often work out better.

Sandy Mackay [00:13:49] Right? Yeah. And looking back.

Rob Break [00:13:51] So you what?

Sandy Mackay [00:13:53] There was a sorry go ahead. Yeah, no, that was rude. I was saying that, you know, looking back on it now, it’s kind of we it’s kind of like a yin yang kind of thing because you’re right. I mean, I’m like, we can do this. Let’s just go full throttle. We were we could do so much more. We’re bigger than we think that we are. And Gabby’s more of the OK, just pump the brakes there, Wayne. Let’s just you know what I mean. So she’s very conservative and I’m very, you know, ambitious. And it’s it. It works out really well. It balances out nicely because otherwise we commonly say, if it was if we had two of me, we would be way over there, but there’d be a giant mess behind us because nobody be cleaning up afterwards, not saying you clean up my messes. I just

Wayne Hillier [00:14:36] don’t believe

Sandy Mackay [00:14:37] she cleans up my sins. But at the same time, like, you know, it’s like I said, it’s all about balance and making sure that we’re not just going one hundred percent full throttle that way. And then I’m missing small things. You know that I’m leaving behind like tenant relationships and making sure that everything is organized properly, so we complement each other very well.

Rob Break [00:14:57] So what was your first investment then? How did you get into that one?

Sandy Mackay [00:15:02] It was our first house. We bought it with the intent to renovate it and sell it, and we didn’t know what we’re doing. And it was it was a house that was like the cheapest one that we could find. Just like everybody else, you know, you don’t have that much of a down payment in the beginning. We got really lazy in the beginning. We didn’t really. We were very hesitant to start joining networks and taking courses and coaching and stuff like that. We assumed we could do it on our own. So how long do we sit on the house before we actually renovated it?

Wayne Hillier [00:15:35] Well, we ended up selling it at the five-year mark, so U.S. that last year Islamic got most of the stuff done.

Sandy Mackay [00:15:41] Yeah, it would actually restart or restart. The whole idea was Gabby got pregnant and that was like, do you guys have kids? Yeah, yeah. So just like let just like every other, you know, investor or other dad, sorry, you know, you have the ideas coming up. Oh shit, I’m having a kid, or you have a kid and you’re like, suddenly you want to start organizing your life and you’re thinking about retirement. You’re thinking about college. Another thing. Everything else. So as soon as we found out Gabby was pregnant, that’s when we decided to renovate the house. So we renovated it together. And it was it was a very fun experience. You know, renovating a house with your wife who’s pregnant,

Wayne Hillier [00:16:26] attached to your wife was flying around.

Sandy Mackay [00:16:28] Yeah, yeah. But we, you know, we made a lot of mistakes, and we didn’t make as much money as that. We thought we were going to, but we flipped it and then we took the proceeds from that and buy another house and we that one had an income suite in the basement. Is that your grocery strategy now, too? Is it being it the secondary suites or how is that developed over time? What type of projects have you have you focused on? It’s always been based on the resources we have at the time. Always. We learned so many different strategies over the years that as an opportunity comes available, you know, we’ll look at it, see what resources we have at the time and whether we take it or not. So I’d say

Wayne Hillier [00:17:05] that our journey has really been opportunity based. It’s like as things come up, it’s like, oh, do we have the tools to make this work? How could we make it work and have gone that way? So we’ve gone through what we’ve utilized many different strategies, but definitely adding secondary suites has been a big part of our journey in the recent past couple of years. Yeah.

Sandy Mackay [00:17:28] As funds and capital started to increase in joint venture capital started to increase. That’s when we could start hopping into those, those more expensive projects like adding secondary suites. You know, a full renovation is one hundred and thirty thousand dollars to renovate upstairs and add a secondary suite. Plus you’ve got your down payment. So on average, you know, unless you’ve got joint venture partner, you need about two hundred thousand dollars to do a deal like that. And in the beginning, we didn’t really have those funds. We were just getting started. So once we got to that point, we started utilizing that. And then just recently, we kind of we got away from it a little bit because the market’s not really perfect for right now where we are, we’re still looking at it. But right now we’re just focusing on seller financing deals and rentals.

Rob Break [00:18:12] So talk to us a little bit about seller financing, though, or vendor take backs. How does that work? And what are you guys looking for in that?

Sandy Mackay [00:18:20] We’ve only done one better take back mortgage, and that was almost by accident because we didn’t know that the seller had fully paid off house, but we learned a few years back about a strategy which is not as popular in Ontario, but Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC. It’s very well known. It’s called the agreement for sales, and we took a course on that in two sixteen. And that just completely changed things for us. And when an agreement for sellers is kind of like a vitb, except it’s not directly tied to the equity that the seller has. So with the vendor, take back mortgage. Obviously, they can only give you the equity that they have with an agreement for sale is seller financing, but the seller keeps the mortgage and the title in their name, which is really cool because it doesn’t matter how much equity they have, they could. You know, it could be. They could have zero equity, they could have a $300000 house with a $300000 mortgage, and they can give you seller financing for X amount of years. They keep the mortgage in the title in their name, and you get all the benefits of appreciation mortgage pay down in cash flow. So we because you’re

Rob Break [00:19:30] like, you’re agreeing on a price upfront and you don’t, you don’t. And from what I understand, I don’t think you even have to. It’s just an agreement for sale if you want to.

Sandy Mackay [00:19:40] Right. We are obligated to. It’s almost like a delayed title transfer. So all the paperwork is done with the lawyers. There’s an agreement that says we’re going to make these monthly payments, and this is the amortization. This is the term. This is the interest rate so that the lawyers can actually have their own mortgage amortization schedule that could see how much mortgage we’ve paid down, which we’re entitled to. But yes, we are obligated to close. OK. How do you find people like that that are open to that? Or what type of seller is going to be attracted to that offering nine times out of 10? You’re dealing with a motivated seller. It is possible there are a lot of tax benefits for the delay. Say, for example, if you had a large portfolio, you’re a little bit older and you didn’t want to sell all of your properties in the same year because you’re going to get hit with a huge tax bill or capital gains, where you can do is you can have an agreement, you can sell them off with agreement for sale so that you don’t get the capital gains charge to you until that year that it closes. So it can be a very strategic strategy. But like I mentioned, nine times out of 10, it’s mostly motivated sellers. So a great example would be like that $300000 example I’ll give you earlier where, you know, maybe they bought it for three hundred and ten thousand dollars two years ago or a year ago, and the market went down a little bit. They probably paid CMHC fees, so they don’t really have that much equity. They put five percent down. So they, you know, maybe they lose their job. Something happens. They need to move. They call up the realtor and the realtor says, well, you don’t have any equity to pay us. So we’re not going to take you. We’re not going to represent you unless you pay us upfront, right? Because they want to see that they’re going to get there. The realtor fees also, they call it the bank and the bank says, Yeah, sure, but you’re locked in in a five-year fixed mortgage, so there’s going to be $15000 where the mortgage penalties to cancel. So in a situation like that, where someone’s needs to move lost their job, something happens that was outside of their control and then they find out that they can’t sell their house and they can’t make the mortgage payments. I mean, that’s they’re in a bit of a pickle. They’re running low on options. So that’s a great example of just, you know, how a situation where we’re able to step in and help someone we can take over your payments will take over the property taxes. You can walk away from the situation. And here’s what we need in exchange. And so how does that how do that from their perspective, I guess how does that how is that more attractive than someone who’s buying it right from them right away? Is it a bit better of an option for them in most cases to delay it like that? Or what scenarios do you find yourself in in that type of negotiation? Mostly the low equity, no equity situations, because, you know, yes, absolutely. They could sell the property. They’d have to sell it privately, right? Because they wouldn’t be able to pay a realtor. And if they let’s say they owe three hundred thousand and their house is worth three hundred thousand. I mean, if they sell it, they’re going to have to pay the bank $15000 cash out of their own pocket if they sell it for three hundred, which they probably won’t see. Absolutely. If someone’s able to sell a property and be able to break even 100 percent, you know, will help them into that will help them find a buyer, will coach them and make sure that that’s the best option for them. But ideally, you know, what we’re doing is we’re offering a solution and that solution is going to be a win, right? We’ve got to make sure that they are getting what they need, that they’re walking away and they’re not losing money. And also, obviously, we’re getting terms that benefit us. We don’t have to remortgage. We don’t have to put any money down and we’re acquiring a property which is huge. When we were getting started out and we ran out of joint venture prospects, we ran out of our own money. We got three properties we think were great. But we’re like, how are we going to get them. Fourth, how are we going to get the 20 like all these other people, and then that’s when we learn that strategy instantly, you know, we were able to start acquiring more properties, though, you know, they’re not great, you know, awesome cash flow properties just based on the way that you know, the mortgage and the expenses and the rents for that type of property. But we’re able to move forward and then leverage that experience and bring in more joint venture partners and to and grow. How did you find those type of opportunities? Where did you have a system around finding those types of people that are in that scenario? Comfrey was really good. The zero fee real estate pages, purple bricks, typically those types of sellers they are normally listing on those websites because of the fact that they can’t pay a realtor. And if you look and you see as built in 2020 and it’s on column free or purple bricks or property guys, whatever in whatever market you’re in, you can normally tell that there’s a reason, and I know that most homebuyers put five percent down. Most homebuyers obviously paying CMHC fees. They’re nine times out of 10, locking into a five-year fixed. So I know all of their details before I even walk in the door. So I’m just looking for very specific things like, OK, that house is built in 2020. It’s a year old. I know that they don’t have any equity and they have a problem, so I’ll just reach out to them and have a discussion with them and find out if that’s a problem that they have and then offer that solution. Alternatively, what you can do is reach out to private listings on Facebook. Anyone who selling their house privately. You can just reach out and say, hey, would you be open to seller financing? And just started discussion that way. Yeah, makes sense because they can’t bear. They’re looking at it going well. I can’t afford a realtor. I can’t. I need to sell, but I can’t try to find a solution to avoid paying fees on the sale, right? Yeah. Anywhere where that would be an obstacle for sale by owners into some way, in some way, shape or form that makes sense and also makes sense. Why, maybe why do you think that’s a lot of those are in, you know, the places you mentioned Alberta, Saskatchewan, not really. Ontario, any thoughts on why that would be Alberta? Because we have had a very flat market for about 10 years.

Wayne Hillier [00:25:43] I also just think that it’s hugely in part to a lack of education like we have the leading educator of these types of strategies here in Alberta. So like, it’s just kind of slowly spreading its way across the country and like, so Barry McGuire’s who we took our education through. He’s here in Edmonton. So it’s like a huge community of people who understand it here. But as you get further out east, there’s not lawyers who understand it. There’s not, you know, like all those aspects come into play where I think it’s catching on. I think that they’ve now gone out and done courses out in Ontario. So I think more people are just learning about it more. I lawyers are getting on board, and I think it will work that way.

Sandy Mackay [00:26:27] Yeah, for sure. The market in Ontario, southern Ontario is not, not been, not been flat, that’s for sure for a while. So, yeah, definitely part of it too. I think here, that’s right. That’s my guess was in Alberta, where it’s I know Everton for sure to. It’s very dependent on oil, I guess from a few other things, but primarily that, right? So I think if that’s not doing so well, the market’s not doing so well over time, there’s a lot more opportunity for people that are underwater a little bit, right? They have the equity growth. Yeah, it’s a solution to a problem. And that’s not a problem that most cities and Ontario have. There’s a lot of people out in Halifax, Nova Scotia that are trying to and they’re running in the same thing where like, I can’t get any deals. Well, I mean, the seller doesn’t isn’t desperate enough in order to need that, they don’t have a problem. So if you’re trying to stuff a solution down their throat and they don’t, they don’t need it, then they’re probably not going to do it. But it’s like I said, there’s lots of different ways you can use it, and we’ve used it creatively in different scenarios. And not just a low equity, no equity scenario. You know, the tax delaying, you know, to benefit on how much taxes you pay on capital gains. It’s there’s a lot of really cool ways, a really great strategy. It really helped us around that. Like I said, that third or fourth property where we hit that wall and they were able to acquire a bunch more and then leverage that experience and then leverage those deals and then obviously build up more capital. And that’s, you know, you asked earlier like what, what, what strategy to focus on. We’ve been all over the place because as resources start growing, you’re able to do bigger deals, right? It’s kind of like that whole, you know, the greenhouses and then you get to a hotel, you know what I mean in monopoly. So you got to start off doing some, you know, maybe riskier deals, but deals with more risk and less money until eventually you get to a point where you can start doing the really good deals and getting the best returns.

Rob Break [00:28:14] So you mentioned risk there. There’s obviously going to be some type of risk involved in a strategy. Like that, what are some of the risks?

Sandy Mackay [00:28:22] I’d say the biggest one is probably the fact that most sellers that you’re dealing with are homeowners and homeowners, like I said, put five percent down. So they have ninety five percent loan to value mortgages, which means higher mortgage payments. If you want cash flow, you need to put at least 20 percent down in most markets, right? So when you have a high ratio mortgage and there’s not many properties, at least in our markets that have a rent ratio, rent to expense ratio that would cash flow for a ninety five percent loan to value mortgage. So most of our properties are negative under $200 a month in cash while they’re still profiting from appreciation and mortgage pay down. It’s just on a month-to-month basis. You know you’re supporting that. So you need to be able to either cover that yourself in the short term or pair it up with another strategy that can increase the cash flow and make it easier to balance

Wayne Hillier [00:29:19] most of our agreement for sale properties. Most of our properties in general.

Sandy Mackay [00:29:24] Yes. Sorry, I misspoke.

Wayne Hillier [00:29:26] Obviously, we don’t. We don’t invest in non-cash floating properties in general.

Sandy Mackay [00:29:30] Oh yeah. Yeah, it’s a risk thing. Like we kind of took a step back from agreement for sales for a little while because it is easy and it’s easy. But like as good as we were at finding those deals and helping those sellers and closing them, I didn’t want to build a whole portfolio that was negative eight thousand dollars a month in cash flow. And though we’re making lots of money long term, you know you’ve got to make sure that your portfolio is diversified and that you have good, healthy cashflow. So like I said, we leverage those opportunities and that success, and then we’re able to get into more cash flow properties, which eventually evened out our portfolio.

Rob Break [00:30:01] OK, so you guys have a theory on why maybe most real estate investors never succeed. What do you what do you think that is?

Sandy Mackay [00:30:10] What do you think, honey put you on the spot?

Wayne Hillier [00:30:15] Well, probably, I think lack of certainty. Hundred percent. That’s what stocks. I mean, like, that’s what over the years has stopped me from wanting to take action is just not knowing. And it usually holds people back until they gain the certainty. So the only way that I was able to take action and step forward was getting certainty from Wayne. Wayne always seems to have an answer for everything. So whenever I’m feeling scared or anxious about something, it’s always because there’s a lack of certainty there.

Sandy Mackay [00:30:45] So would you agree 100 percent? It’s there’s no shortage, of course, is being, you know, available coaches and stuff like that. But there’s always that one little thing that kind of prevents you from taking action was like, Oh, what about this? Or what if this happens? What if this happens? And is that again, that lack of certainty that you think that everything is going to be perfect? So a lot of people get stuck on that and they don’t do it. And I’m sure just like your market and your networks, you see lots of people coming in every month into the real estate investing community, and they’re all like their change in their Facebook profile descriptions and like, I’m a real estate investor and they kind of float around for about three or four years and they don’t really do all that much. Maybe they pick up one. And, you know, I think another thing is that they don’t they’re not really focused in on why they’re doing it. They saw somebody on some podcast, or they talk to somebody at work, and they thought it was really cool, but they don’t have a very strong why that’s drawing them to it. And when you don’t have something, you know, outcome a goal y that you can attach to it, you know, day to day, you may be good for a couple of days, couple of weeks, couple of months. But then when the hard days are coming, that’s when you start quitting. And that’s when you don’t make that difficult phone call or you don’t take on that deal that you’re a little unsure about, right? You’re not willing to take that step and not know what’s going to happen, which you see that a lot. And unfortunately, I’m not, I’m not, you know, poking fun at it. It’s just it’s a very unfortunate because you know that people don’t have that level of certainties in order to go do that because there a lot of great things you can do.

Rob Break [00:32:20] Yeah, I do think one of the big things is just accepting all of the problems that do come along with it because like you said, well, what if this happens and this happens and almost certainly there will. Right. So you just have to accept it and try to understand that in the time when and if the time comes that you are, you will find a way through it. And it may seem it may seem very intimidating at first. But when you look back on it, you know, there’s and there’s always somebody else that you can talk to who has gone through the same thing as well can help you through it. Right. So it is important to get out there and talk to those people who are doing what you want to do. And that does take away a lot of the fear, a lot of the uncertainty when someone else when you can say to someone, well, what happens if I do this? Well, if you’ve never done a deal and you two are talking to each other when you start, what happens? If this happens, you go, I don’t know. What do you think? No one’s got the answer. You got to talk to the people that have done it right. So yeah, absolutely most very important.

Sandy Mackay [00:33:27] There’s a there’s a very cool exercise that that we like to do, or I like to do on a regular basis. And I like to just go up to Gabby in the middle of the because we work together now. We work together at home. And I’ll ask her, hey, remember when, when that happened, when that tenant did that thing and she’d be like, Oh God, yeah, I completely forgot about that. And then I’d be like, isn’t it kind of funny how it doesn’t bother us anymore? Yeah, you kind of laugh at the moment that you used to be like, oh my God, we have to quit, and we can’t do this anymore, that that one tenant that was very difficult to get out. You know, you thought that was the biggest problem in your life. And then now look at all this stuff that we’re dealing with on a regular basis. So it’s good to look back every now and then just to kind of see how far you’ve grown and how far you’ve come. And that’s it’s empowering. You know, I kind of stand up a little bit taller and my days a little bit easier because I know that whatever it is that I’m dealing with right now is not that bad compared to if you ask me in five years.

Rob Break [00:34:20] Absolutely. For example, let me bring a little something that happened to me on the very first rental project that we did. There was a foundation leak. We found out about it after the fact, right, that the house needed to be wrapped. I didn’t know what to do. I thought the sky was falling and I’m like, this is going to cost like a thousand more dollars. But how do I explain this to the people with money here that, you know, we just need eight more thousand dollars? Sorry, I didn’t budget into it, you know, that kind of thing. So, you know, lay awake at night going, oh man, using someone else’s money. And now I got to tell them this and what happens when something else goes wrong on top of it, you know, today my contractor called me said, Yeah, we got a foundation leak. I’m like, Great, OK. You know all this? Yeah, exactly. Took care of it in like a half an hour and then moved on with my day. So yeah, it’s nice. You know, when you realize that, I mean, it’s not great news. Don’t get me wrong, it’s just that we’ve been through it now and we know how to navigate it. You know,

Sandy Mackay [00:35:25] and I think it’s important for people to, you know, for those listening, there is there is hope you have to have hope. Someone else has been through the same problem you’ve been through, and they’ve and they’ve persevered and you’re never going to have all the answers when you get started. You’re never going to happen. Doesn’t matter how much money you put into it, either. Forty thousand dollars with the coaching doesn’t matter. There’s always going to have. There’s always going to be things you don’t know, and you have to just kind of take that chance and take that risk and know that the, you know, the gains that you’ll get from it will outweigh the risk or anything that could possibly go wrong.

Rob Break [00:35:55] Yeah. Drive down the road until you hit the red light and then read the book that tells you how to turn it green know and then move to the next one.

Sandy Mackay [00:36:03] Yeah, exactly. Wayne, anything you it sounds like you had. You had maybe not full certainty when you were ready and itching to go to the start, or maybe you did, but some variation of that, I guess. How were you able to move on? How were you able to take action anyways? We even mentioned now people needing certainty, which I agree. At what level of certainty did you have a guest or if you didn’t have feel like, how were you able to still take action in those cases? May I? Yeah, thank you. Because I didn’t want to sound.

Wayne Hillier [00:36:32] I think that he had full certainty. I think I think that he thought that he knew everything and that he had a fully laid out plan and that he was rip-roaring ready to go. I wasn’t so certain, and I needed a lot of assurance and Wayne had all the insurance to provide. So I think that he but also like we you had by from the time you read that book to all of the further education and reading books, listening to podcasts, all those types of things. I think that you felt like you had the answers, right? Which turns out we didn’t have all the answers, but enough to get Wayne moving, at least. Mm-Hmm. And like when I think back, I was so scared about becoming a landlord and so was like, OK. He printed off the Residential Tenancy Act for Alberta and was like, OK, we’re going to read it, and then we’re going to quiz each other on situations. If the tenant trashes our place, what do we do if we like just any, anything, if we need to evict somebody, if we need this and that? So like literally, we studied the Residential Tenancy Act from start to finish and then spent our evenings quizzing each other on situations. So for Wayne, I don’t think like if any of them kind of lack of certainty creeps in, he just goes out and finds a certainty that he needs. He’s like, That’s I say, it’s like a superpower of yours. But that’s the thing is that like we, we have such compliment, like where he thrives and I laugh, like we complement each other so well, and my strengths are his weaknesses. So we are really easily able to overcome most things that come up because one of us has the strength needed to overcome it.

Sandy Mackay [00:38:16] Thank you. I didn’t want to say that about my. And what what’s differently? Yeah, but

Rob Break [00:38:25] that’s really interesting what you guys did. I think that, you know the quiz thing, right? It’s almost like investors Trivial Pursuit board game or something like that.

Wayne Hillier [00:38:38] Yeah.

Rob Break [00:38:39] Yeah, it’s maybe, maybe if you guys have those questions written down, you can make that up. I don’t know.

Sandy Mackay [00:38:45] I yeah. Preparedness is a big thing for me. And maybe it’s maybe there’s some underlying psychological issues or mental issues that like, I’m very, very dedicated and passionate about it, and I don’t half assed things. Well, here’s sorry. No, please.

Rob Break [00:39:06] Well, I was going to say, here’s a question, then it sounds like just because of the situation, you guys that you were ready to go right away. Mm hmm. So and it was more the uncertainty on Gabby’s part that held you back. So how much preparedness did you actually need before you were ready to take that first step?

Sandy Mackay [00:39:28] Not, not very much. But from the moment I read that book, I was reading the next book. I was listening to podcast. I was like, I was on it. And though, you know, looking back, I look at myself, you know, eight years ago, like, man, you didn’t know anything. But I think that you need to have a little bit of hope and a little bit of grit and just didn’t just trust that the process will work and surround yourself with the right people. And you know, I started joining the groups and stuff like that when we did, and I just knew that whatever problem they come up there was always an answer. You just said it was a matter of finding it. So sitting around and reading books and not doing anything just has never been for me.

Wayne Hillier [00:40:07] Not in your DNA.

Sandy Mackay [00:40:08] It’s not in my DNA. And I think that’s most entrepreneurs, right? And lots of people become real estate investors, and they’re not necessarily entrepreneurs. Or maybe they’re not necessarily built for this, and they’ll do great things. They’ll get a couple of properties. But for me, it was always like skyscrapers, and you know what I mean, like just being the best possible version of myself that I could always be. And that’s that goes way back into high school and sports and starting a band like I always, you know what I mean? The other guys are plucking strings and hitting the high hat. Just they just wanted to play me. I’m like, OK, well, we’re going to Phenix. And it was always like, we’re hiring a manager, so it’s always been kind of ingrained in me. And yeah, it is. It is my superpower. But you know, I do have flaws, and Gabby complements those flaws so perfectly.

Wayne Hillier [00:40:56] I poke all the holes and all of his plans, right? That’s a big, a big job of mine. It’s like, well, wait a minute, what about this? And what about that? It’s like, Oh, yeah, OK.

Sandy Mackay [00:41:07] And I coach a lot of people now, too. And, you know, same thing. One of the first questions I ask is, well, first thing is, do you want to be a real estate investor and financial freedom, or you want wanna be a rock star like this is a very different approach to how you’re going to do this. The second question is always, where’s your wife or your spouse? Yeah, because I don’t think it’s possible to do it without a partner. I don’t. Or not without your partner, is what I’m saying.

Rob Break [00:41:34] Yes, yes. So, Gaby, I want to ask you the same question now. How much preparing do you need to do before you take the first step?

Wayne Hillier [00:41:42] You know what, if I didn’t have Wayne’s influence and Wayne saying, this is what we’re going to do and I need you to be on board, I would have never embarked on this journey. And so for me, trusting him as my partner and knowing that he wouldn’t get us into something to our demise. I trusted him and he gave me the assurance that I needed to kind of overcome some of those insecurities. So I think it was like those initial conversations were really important about, you know, being vulnerable about what my insecurities were, what my fears were and having him be able to come in and say, OK, well, let’s study this thing. Let’s make sure that you feel comfortable in those types of things. So, you know, like depending on the dynamic of who you’re working with, if they’re able to help you overcome that, then me just having that trust in him was enough for me to say, OK, I’m in. We’ll do this and please keep assuring me along the way. Right? So communication as well, right?

Rob Break [00:42:43] So it sounds like, I guess, like whichever partner is the one that sort of initiates it. I mean, because I went through a similar thing, my wife would try to poke holes in the plan. And at first, she spoke lots of holes in my plans. They’re not able to be read when she’s done with them. And then eventually, you know, she tried her pencil broke. I don’t know. But, you know, once you can, once the once, once they’re confident that you know what you’re doing, maybe, and you’ve got some of the answers that leads to the questions that get asked. That’s a big key, right?

Sandy Mackay [00:43:21] Let’s go back to like the why and the beliefs and the vision. And that’s why, you know, I asked that question very early on because I want that then the person I’m talking to in there and their partner to have a good conversation about what do you really want in life? Because I think that if you can build a vision of what you want your life to be like early on together and you draw it out and you paint it and then you guys, then it’s easier for you guys to get it for, for the spouse to trust that this is why they’re doing it. But you know your example of your wife poking holes until he couldn’t even recognize anymore. That can actually be very, you know, debilitating for, for you because you come in, you’re like, Honey, we got this amazing thing. I’m going to build this for us and everything else, and it’s going to be amazing. And then she goes Free, free, free. And how do you how do you feel after that? You feel I’m not. I’m not putting your wife down and putting you down. But like as me, that really like affected me where like I go to this event and I hear this thing and I thought I was the greatest idea is that you’re coming home and you know, you drew this amazing picture for mom and dad and then dad’s like, whatever, you know it really? And do you think that I go when I take that, and I go and build that thing that I wanted to do? No, I feel really crappy, and I walk away and I’m like, Fine.

Rob Break [00:44:42] Well, I think that there’s definitely a difference between somebody saying responding to a plan like, I don’t even want to hear it as opposed to, OK, you know, and step two here. What exactly happens there? And if you go, well, I don’t know. You know, that’s the difference, right? You got to have like once you have the answer to step two, when they ask you, OK, well, once we get there, what happens next? And you go, oh, let me tell you, here’s what happens. Yeah, then you know what I mean? So. So I think it comes down to like, I mean, the education that you got in the first place, right? So there is a will. There’s never a definitive answer. Like I, I tried to be a bully. I don’t know. A couple of years ago, I made up this thing on here or I just said, Look, you know, I’m going to give anyone who’s listening to this right now, and they’re starting out three months to educate themselves and then go and do something with it, you know, because you’re never going to know it all. And you do know those guys that hang out at the real estate investor clubs for three years and don’t do anything right. They just, I don’t know. They want to be around entrepreneurial type people. I’m not really sure, but they’re not doing anything right. They’re not making any moves. So that’s why, you know, there’s another book where the last book came from. You just got to say, OK, I have learned enough. I am ready to take the steps and I’ll keep on learning. I’m not going to lie.

Sandy Mackay [00:46:15] Mm hmm. One of the common things that I hear, you know from those people in those rooms is that a lot is that my wife isn’t on board, or my husband isn’t on board. And you know, I want to go back and sorry if I’m that horse on this one, but I wanna go back to that example where you went to your wife and you’re like, Honey, you get this amazing idea. And then she says, Holy crap, fuck. Yeah, that’s amazing. Let’s do it. You’ll have that thing done in a day. Right, it’s a very big difference where if someone started poking holes through it and you’re like, you feel like you’re defending yourself, probably take another two weeks in order to get that rolling. But if your spouse, your partner was right on board with it and like, oh my god, that’s amazing, honey, let’s do it. I bet she stay up till three o’clock in the morning getting that done because it meant so much to you. And that’s why that’s why I think it’s super important to have that conversation with your wife and get them on board initially, because you’re far more likely to actually go and get it done sooner, rather than waiting three years trying to convince your wife and you know, that whole slow process. So I, you know again, like, I think it’s super important to have your partner on board. It’s possible to do without it. But I think if you want an ideal scenario circumstance and then definitely have your partner on board, my lines one to when you’re talking with that is it’s a healthy dose of skepticism. But if you’re not, if you don’t see the same end in mind and the end looks way different, then you’re not going to. The skepticism is going to be skeptical because it’s not going to get us to that end. Yeah, but if the skepticism is on white because they’re on a totally different path than you and they’re thinking, well, it’s not good for my vision of this, then that’s where you’re going to be misaligned, right? And that healthy skepticism is not going to be very healthy where whereas you know, I’m an overly optimistic person, do generally I need a little skeptic in my life because they gave me on track with the, you know, so I think I see a lot of value and some skepticism at times, but it’s got to be as long as they’re in alignment on the total journey and the path. That’s where it’s advantageous versus detrimental, right?

Wayne Hillier [00:48:11] Yeah, I’m actually I’m glad you said that because for a long time with Wayne trying to get me like really on board, I think he was telling me what he thought I would want out of life like this will get us this and we can have this. But those weren’t actually things that meant anything to me or that I wanted or like. If we get to this place or in this many years, we’ll be able to afford this. But like that wasn’t driving me. I was just like, OK, like. And so once we finally like action, we’re kind of recently within the last couple of years. Yeah. You know, like kind of set down about like, what do you want? What do I want? And we’re two very different people. We come from very different upbringings, different provinces and small town, his big city, we’re very different people. And so once we realized, OK, we want like our ankles aren’t the same, but how can we make, how can we put them together? And so it’s like, OK, he could sacrifice where we live. I could sacrifice, you know this. So like we realized that we could build a dream together based on the different things that we wanted. And that’s when things really started clicking. I think for us,

Sandy Mackay [00:49:21] your journey took a huge turn. Yeah. Gaby, because Gabby was always the good soldier. Just, you know, doing what I had to do. Do you know what you had to do? And she never complained about it very much. And that was it. She she’s like, Yeah, I understand. But she wasn’t passionate about it until we had that kind of moment where we finally kind of drew that picture of what life was going to be like and what we were going to do when we woke up when we were going to wake up. Where’s that really going to school, our daughter? You know, what are we doing for lunch? Where are we going to be just like almost like just playing our day of our perfect life? And once we got it to a point where it was something that we could both be passionate about, Gabby’s like, just took a huge time like you started. Gabby started. She took some courses on running measurements. Which one do you want to start a women’s mastermind? So she kind of wanted to share this experience on this journey that she’s had because she’s she can relate to it. The Resistance wife or partner. And she wanted to start putting masterminds together to empower more women on the journey, the journey that she’s been on and revolving that around real estate investing.

Rob Break [00:50:30] And that’s a that’s a that’s an extremely interesting point and very important one, I think, you know, to make this sort of click with whoever your whoever your spouses is that, you know, if I went to my wife and said, if we if we invest in two or three years, we can buy a boat. My wife would be like, I don’t want a boat. Why would I like to leave me out of it? Yeah. But if you can get on track of where you guys want to be, you know, even before, like because a lot of people start, once you get into real estate investing, you start planning out doing it like working out all these plans, like almost right away. It’s one of the first sort of things that you get into right with it. But before that, a lot of people don’t. So, OK, there’s our advice for the day, guys. If you’re if you’re if you want to get your wife on board, pull at our heartstrings, find out what it is that she wants and go, hey, that’s what we are going to be able to do if we get this house.

Sandy Mackay [00:51:32] You can also get the vote and she can have extra vacation or something. You can do both. You might have to hit by a couple more.

Rob Break [00:51:40] You just don’t mention the boat Sandy you mentioned

Wayne Hillier [00:51:43] that

Sandy Mackay [00:51:45] boat comes

Rob Break [00:51:45] later.

Sandy Mackay [00:51:46] Yeah.

Rob Break [00:51:50] So tell us about your podcast. You’ve got a podcast. You would do it for a while now to tell us about that.

Sandy Mackay [00:51:56] It is literally revolving all around where we’re kind of talking about right now, and I called it the real estate investor. That podcast? Not necessarily just dads on there. You know me being a real estate investor dad in the life, and it’s about the balance, the integration, whatever you want to call it, that work life balance of being a dad, being a mom, whatever, having a dog, having a job, having a baseball team and then trying to build a real estate portfolio, having this dream and a lot of people, there’s all that’s easy for you. You don’t do this, or I got this, and I have to do this, and I can’t do that because my husband doesn’t like this. And so it’s I like to have people on to kind of share their experiences and their routines to kind of shine a light on that, to show that there are people who are in your same situation or circumstances that are prevailing and that they can do it and you can do it too. So that’s yeah, that’s why I bought the podcast. It’s been fantastic. We’ve been running it for just about two years now, and I’m learning every time, every time I put an episode on or every time I have an interview, I’m learning as well. So it’s been a really fun experience.

Rob Break [00:53:03] So the American people hear that

Sandy Mackay [00:53:06] iTunes, Spotify, Google Play all get fully syndicated.

Rob Break [00:53:14] Well, one more time, what are you calling it?

Sandy Mackay [00:53:16] A Real Estate Investor Dad podcast. So if you type in real estate investing and you’ll see Breakthrough Real Estate as number one? And then if you scroll down above maybe a couple of maybe your own 10, you’ll see real estate investor dad always just be number one for the longest time. Just been trying to get right beside you guys. What about the master, the mastermind, too? Gary, tell us a bit about that. Working people to find out more info on that.

Wayne Hillier [00:53:41] Yes, so I’m actually in the process of rebuilding a website. I just took it down from a site that I was using. But in the meantime, I am on social media, on Facebook and Instagram as myself. Gaby Hillier and then it’s Dash mastermind facilitator. And I think the best thing to do is just to message me and I can get all the details out. I actually I’m looking at starting up another group pretty soon here. Just right now, we’re actually gearing up for a move. We’re going to be moving and we have a lot going on right now. Our daughter’s got to go online for the last couple of months of school, so just trying to get our life settled and then get another group, Brennan, so

Sandy Mackay [00:54:25] that I can add a wide group or beyond that or

Wayne Hillier [00:54:29] Canada wide. Yeah, I initially had thought, OK, it’ll be Edmonton based and COVID. We can’t meet up in person, so we’re online. And then it’s like, oh, wait, online means they can be anywhere. So yeah, it turned out that my first group was all Edmonton based, but now it’s kind of expanding now to have people in all different parts of Alberta. I have members in Ontario, so yeah, it’s kind of catch and word that it’s Canada based and it’s nice to kind of get the different perspectives as well. That’s kind of one of the questions that people have when they’re not in Alberta is, you know, do you think it would be beneficial for me here in Ontario to join? And I love the perspective of the different markets and you know; you never know what somebody is going to say. It’s like Ontario and Alberta are so different. And maybe some of the members here in Alberta would love to invest in Ontario. And you’re now an expert on the untapped Ontario market, right? So there’s just all these possibilities that emerge when we kind of expand the geographical horizons.

Rob Break [00:55:32] Yeah, yeah, OK. And for anyone who is interested in that, all the links are going to be in the show notes to just jump over there and you’ll be able to, you know, hook up with these guys. So last question, I guess what’s next for you?

Sandy Mackay [00:55:50] Oh boy. Well, I am. I have my financing business, my, my rental and financing business. And that’s growing pretty significantly. And just keep buying more properties. I mean, I’m kind of living a pretty good life right now, like we have a roadmap on how we want to get to that thing that we that we painted. We didn’t actually paint. But I just say we have a road map. We’re on track, but just making sure that every day in between that we’re not just like, head down, we have to get there like we’re enjoying ourselves. I left my job last summer and now we spend every day together. We have breakfast and lunch and I do podcast. She does her thing, I do my thing, drop off the little one at school. So I have a really great life right now and we’re moving into a new house and it’s going to keep on keeping on what we have in our road map and just keep buying properties and doing more deals and helping other people along the way.

Rob Break [00:56:44] That’s great. Congratulations, guys, to you on that. And that’s a big, big move. You know, be able to, I guess, turn to this full time, right?

Sandy Mackay [00:56:54] Yeah, it’s you know, I see a lot of people that are like, oh, I need to get a hundred properties or 200 properties and the last me, hey, Wayne, well, if you’re so good at getting a green for sales, why don’t you have 50 or what do you have on a property? I don’t want on our properties. I know exactly how many properties I need in order to get to my goal, and I know exactly how I’m going to do it and just working at that pace, there’s no need to go. I could totally get, you know, three more joint venture partners this weekend if I wanted to. That sounds a little cocky, but I could like if I really wanted to want. I want to go all in on it. I could. But why? Why? Why jeopardize now for a little bit farther later? I think we’re right on. We’re right on course. We’re at a great pace and we’re just enjoying life.

Rob Break [00:57:35] Excellent. Excellent. I guess. Well, I do have one. I do it. I actually do have one more question for you guys, so I lied that that wasn’t the last one. I like to find out if there’s a piece of info advice that’s always stuck with you guys and how it helped you.

Sandy Mackay [00:57:55] You have to ask us individually because it’s completely different if you want to go first.

Wayne Hillier [00:58:02] I think the biggest piece are there, I guess the yeah, the biggest piece of knowledge that I’ve gained that’s changed my life the most has just been the realization that each day when you wake up, you have a choice to choose your mindset and that you can let all the external things impact you and use them as like, Oh, Wayne was in a bad mood, and now I’m in a bad mood and those types of things. Or you can wake up and just decide that it’s going to be a freakin awesome day. And having the power to make that choice every day has changed my life dramatically. I used to have all the excuses of all the external things affecting me and all that sort of stuff. Once I took control of that and power of my own, my own life and my own mindset, I have been a much happier person.

Sandy Mackay [00:58:57] You can tell it at emotional, logical hearing, very different dynamics because mine is, I think it was Seneca that said it was. There’s no such thing as luck. Luck is when preparedness meets opportunity. So I am constantly, always preparing myself, making sure that I’m always certain if we’re going back to certainty. There’s also another quote and are you guys Game of Thrones fans? Yeah, I haven’t seen one Game of Thrones episode. I don’t know how I know. I’m probably I know I’m in the minority, probably, but I haven’t seen any of it. You know, I’ll get it’s kind of a bad character example to reference, but little Littlefinger had this quote in there. He said, don’t fight in the North, don’t fight in the south, fight everyone at all times. You get this way. You’ll never be surprised. So that’s kind of the way that I operate my life. I’m always constantly thinking about every possible resource that I have, every possible relationship that I have. And if anything goes wrong, I always have an answer for it, which has obviously helped us out a lot, giving her that certainty in that trust. And I think as an entrepreneur, I mean, it’s kind of ingrained in us. We’re always constantly thinking about the next move. So I mean, that’s that stuff has always stuck with me. Yeah.

Rob Break [01:00:10] And he was an entrepreneur as well, right?

Sandy Mackay [01:00:12] I was an entrepreneur. I think he was misunderstood.

Rob Break [01:00:19] OK, well, that’s great. Guys, thanks for joining us today. You know, we really appreciate you sharing. This was super fun.

Sandy Mackay [01:00:25] Yeah, it was a lot of. Yeah. Yeah, I loved it. Lots of lots of well. We touched on a good really topic. We haven’t talked about a lot of the agreement for sales on this show, at least and a lot of good practical, just life advice, which is kind of fun, the fun to go down that that conversation with as well, because this is this is it’s a life journey here. It’s not about all the properties. Like you said, many times, it’s about the life and what you’re creating for yourself. So, you know, it’s something that’s worth talking about and worth thinking about a little deeper than I think a lot of us do. So thanks for bringing that to our attention on the listeners attention. I think that’s a good, great kind of thing to think about a little more and a little deeper. So we want to make sure everyone reaches out to you and listens to your show and both your shows, your masterminds. Go check all this stuff out. I think you’ve got some great valuable content out there that that we want to make sure people get a hold of and you’ll find it. So what’s the best way to get in touch with either of you? Oh, Facebook, Instagram probably the easiest way. That’s where we’re most active on it. Would you say some? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely

Rob Break [01:01:32] cool. OK? And again, we’re going to have all the links in the show notes. So if you if you guys missed it, are you you’re driving or whatever you can, you know, stop, pull over safely, look up the information and go and get in touch with these guys. So Sandy, how can people get in touch with you?

Sandy Mackay [01:01:52] Two eight nine three eight nine six eight four six or Sandy MacKay Realty Network?

Rob Break [01:01:57] And people can reach me at Rob at Mr. Breakthrough Dossier. Thanks, Robert. Wow. I really messed that up. Thanks for listening again, guys, and we will see you next time. Have a good day. Thanks.

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